6 ms·

Inside the Deep Web Drug Lab

111 points by steven 12y ago

GordonS 12y ago
This is a really good idea and uptake of services like this, and sharing the information generated, could help increase the quality of products sold on darknet markets, and ultimately save lives. I'd love to see something like this in the UK, and ideally it would be a bit cheaper. Ideally such services should be ran by governments, which could also help to ensure that items mailed to their addresses are not seized.
- wz1000 12y ago
  Then you have the moral police complaining that the government is promoting drug usage.
  - GordonS 12y ago
    Yes, I agree there would be serious obstacles to this, and such people would certainly be one of them! Funding is always going to be an issue for NGOs though.
  - Igglyboo 12y ago
    Needle exchange programs already exist, surely this would be similar enough to get them enacted.
  - duaneb 12y ago
    Maybe drug usage shouldn't be considered a "moral" decision....
- HarryHirsch 12y ago
  Meanwhile you have people calling to abolish the FDA because markets are so much more efficient at providing safe, efficaceius pharmeceuticals. It makes no sense, real-world data from the black market shows it makes no sense.
  - sixQuarks 12y ago
    Are you kidding me? In what world is the black market a free market? The entire reason it's called an "underground" market is because it can't legally operate as a free market.
    - gnur 12y ago
      Depends on your definition of a free market. It is free in the sense there is no government (or other entity) controlling it.
      - woah 12y ago
        Say what? The black market is completely defined and dominated by the heaviest form of government control, literally men with guns kicking down your door.
        irishcoffee 12y ago
        free mar·ket noun an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses. By that definition, the black market is a free market. You could argue about the word 'unrestricted' but I doubt you'd change my mind.
        mattstreet 12y ago
        The competition is limited to entities willing to break the law and deal with other people doing the same.
        irishcoffee 12y ago
        That doesn't really say anything at all. The bakery competition is limited to people who want to run a bakery. The beer store market is limited to people who want to run beer stores. Breaking the law obviously isn't an issue for people in drug industry.
- shabble 12y ago
  There is http://www.wedinos.org/db/sample_testing http://www.wedinos.org/db/sample_testing although it does require you to submit a bunch of questions and a postcode along with the sample. Politicians are very sensitive to being seen to be 'running a drug dealer QA lab', despite the obvious harm reduction benefits, so they try to cover themselves with various constraints.
- pakled_engineer 12y ago
  Netherlands you can anonymously drop pills and powders for lab testing. Tons of kids were dropping dead buying fake mdma on the streets and this put an end to it. Same thing happened in Canada as soon as they cracked down on precursors and drove up the price the streets were filled with poisonous alternatives but unfortunately the police still shill a failed abstinence policy and as a result you get stuff like this happening everytime a bad batch floats around http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calgary/8-alberta-deaths-linked-to-ecstasy-like-drug-1.1166437 http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calgary/8-alberta-deaths-lin...
sixQuarks 12y ago
What a great service. What most people don't realize is the majority of ecstacy-related deaths are due to non-ecstasy pills. The drug war is one of the most futile and frustrating things in the modern world.
- selectodude 12y ago
  Drugs will ruin your life, and if by chance they don't, the Government will finish the job.
  - wz1000 12y ago
    Most of the issues that afflict drug users stem from their illegality. 1. Drugs are frequently adulterated because of lack of any regulation. Adulterants are responsible for most of the side effects of heroin use. The only side effect of pure heroin is constipation. 2. Again, purity of drugs varies a lot, so there is no proper information available about dosages. This leads to overdoses. 3. Drug users are denied jobs and treatment, so they cannot get their lives on track even if they want to. 4. Money from drug sales is entirely in black, and is used to fuel further illegal activity. 5. Drug users don't have access to clean needles and safe paraphernalia, which leads to spread of blood-borne diseases and injuries. All of these problems simply go away with legalization and regulation.
    - relaytheurgency 12y ago
      I'm pretty sure that you can still deny someone a job for being a drug user, even if the drugs are legal. In fact, several of those things aren't solved merely by legalization and regulation. Overdoses happen on legal, regulated drugs all the time. A lot of drug related complications are due to mixing substances, which is not solved by legalization or regulation. Clean needles and paraphernalia are not necessarily "solved' by regulation or legalization, clean needles are available right now in any drug store.
      - wz1000 12y ago
        Overdoses would certainly be reduced by a large extent by legalization. Also, drug education that is more rational and nuanced than "drugs are evil and will ruin your life" will go a long way in preventing the kinds you problems you talk about.
bkudria 12y ago
In the US: http://www.ecstasydata.org/ http://www.ecstasydata.org/
- pakled_engineer 12y ago
  There's also pillreports.com a basic review site to identify bad street pills
pcthrowaway 12y ago
I wonder how the deep web can protect against two things happening: - users who have an interest in promoting one of the vendors providing them with positive reviews, while other vendors receive negative reviews - users who are known for reviewing samples receiving higher-quality orders Surely there's a way to keep the vendors honest in a more long-term way, as well as gauge the consistency of each, but it eludes me right now.
- rwmj 12y ago
  The same way these things are / are not dealt with in the "ordinary" web. Ebay must have precisely the same issues.
- throwaway7767 12y ago
  The second problem is easily solved by the reviewers creating new accounts for each order. In fact it's a better test since newcomers are more likely to be screwed over by a seller than someone with a forum presence who would have more credibility if they complained. The first problem is harder.
rwmj 12y ago
Interesting that the marketplace they talk about (Evolution) closed down a couple of weeks ago with evidence of a huge Bitcoin scam. Seems you can test the honesty of the sellers but not the market :-( http://www.deepdotweb.com/2015/03/18/interview-with-nswgreat-evolution-staff-member/ http://www.deepdotweb.com/2015/03/18/interview-with-nswgreat...
- wz1000 12y ago
  Multisig solves that problem.
Speakeasys 12y ago
That dude looks like a straight dealer. Lol. DoctorX. But yes I agree if someone is going to put harmful chemicals in their body they might as well prevent any further damage to their body and reduce risk of complications.
CoffeeDregs 12y ago
There is/was a similar organization in California called DanceSafe (which friends used). Still there: http://dancesafe.org/ http://dancesafe.org/ You could/can mail them pills and they would test them for content ratios (not content amounts). Fantastic service to reduce harm.
discardorama 12y ago
I hate to be pedantic, but "Deep Web" is the part of the Web that crawlers can't reach, because it's hidden behind POST requests and JS actions[1], and not nefariously. "Dark Web" is the term they're looking for. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Web http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Web
- skizm 12y ago
  > She is holding the lab’s latest delivery of a drug bought from the “deep web,” the clandestine corner of the internet that isn’t reachable by normal search engines... Seems like they used the term correctly.
  - shubb 12y ago
    Trouble is, the academics talking about deep web don't mean a clandestine corner. They more mean private Facebook pages and uncrawlable product catalogues. Stuff that is part of the normal internet though. It's kinda silly semantics now though, most people seem to use it to talk about illicit hidden stuff. It's like saying, that's not a Hoover it's a vacuume cleaner. This particular article is a bit annoying though because the writer is either confused, trolling, or avoiding describing technical specifics for ethical raisins. Best kind of raisin.

111 points by steven 12y ago

This is a really good idea and uptake of services like this, and sharing the information generated, could help increase the quality of products sold on darknet markets, and ultimately save lives. I'd love to see something like this in the UK, and ideally it would be a bit cheaper. Ideally such services should be ran by governments, which could also help to ensure that items mailed to their addresses are not seized.

wz1000 12y ago
Then you have the moral police complaining that the government is promoting drug usage.
- GordonS 12y ago
  Yes, I agree there would be serious obstacles to this, and such people would certainly be one of them! Funding is always going to be an issue for NGOs though.
- Igglyboo 12y ago
  Needle exchange programs already exist, surely this would be similar enough to get them enacted.
- duaneb 12y ago
  Maybe drug usage shouldn't be considered a "moral" decision....
HarryHirsch 12y ago
Meanwhile you have people calling to abolish the FDA because markets are so much more efficient at providing safe, efficaceius pharmeceuticals. It makes no sense, real-world data from the black market shows it makes no sense.
- sixQuarks 12y ago
  Are you kidding me? In what world is the black market a free market? The entire reason it's called an "underground" market is because it can't legally operate as a free market.
  - gnur 12y ago
    Depends on your definition of a free market. It is free in the sense there is no government (or other entity) controlling it.
    - woah 12y ago
      Say what? The black market is completely defined and dominated by the heaviest form of government control, literally men with guns kicking down your door.
      - irishcoffee 12y ago
        free mar·ket noun an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses. By that definition, the black market is a free market. You could argue about the word 'unrestricted' but I doubt you'd change my mind.
        mattstreet 12y ago
        The competition is limited to entities willing to break the law and deal with other people doing the same.
        irishcoffee 12y ago
        That doesn't really say anything at all. The bakery competition is limited to people who want to run a bakery. The beer store market is limited to people who want to run beer stores. Breaking the law obviously isn't an issue for people in drug industry.
shabble 12y ago
There is http://www.wedinos.org/db/sample_testing http://www.wedinos.org/db/sample_testing although it does require you to submit a bunch of questions and a postcode along with the sample. Politicians are very sensitive to being seen to be 'running a drug dealer QA lab', despite the obvious harm reduction benefits, so they try to cover themselves with various constraints.
pakled_engineer 12y ago
Netherlands you can anonymously drop pills and powders for lab testing. Tons of kids were dropping dead buying fake mdma on the streets and this put an end to it. Same thing happened in Canada as soon as they cracked down on precursors and drove up the price the streets were filled with poisonous alternatives but unfortunately the police still shill a failed abstinence policy and as a result you get stuff like this happening everytime a bad batch floats around http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calgary/8-alberta-deaths-linked-to-ecstasy-like-drug-1.1166437 http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calgary/8-alberta-deaths-lin...

sixQuarks 12y ago

What a great service. What most people don't realize is the majority of ecstacy-related deaths are due to non-ecstasy pills. The drug war is one of the most futile and frustrating things in the modern world.

selectodude 12y ago
Drugs will ruin your life, and if by chance they don't, the Government will finish the job.
- wz1000 12y ago
  Most of the issues that afflict drug users stem from their illegality. 1. Drugs are frequently adulterated because of lack of any regulation. Adulterants are responsible for most of the side effects of heroin use. The only side effect of pure heroin is constipation. 2. Again, purity of drugs varies a lot, so there is no proper information available about dosages. This leads to overdoses. 3. Drug users are denied jobs and treatment, so they cannot get their lives on track even if they want to. 4. Money from drug sales is entirely in black, and is used to fuel further illegal activity. 5. Drug users don't have access to clean needles and safe paraphernalia, which leads to spread of blood-borne diseases and injuries. All of these problems simply go away with legalization and regulation.
  - relaytheurgency 12y ago
    I'm pretty sure that you can still deny someone a job for being a drug user, even if the drugs are legal. In fact, several of those things aren't solved merely by legalization and regulation. Overdoses happen on legal, regulated drugs all the time. A lot of drug related complications are due to mixing substances, which is not solved by legalization or regulation. Clean needles and paraphernalia are not necessarily "solved' by regulation or legalization, clean needles are available right now in any drug store.
    - wz1000 12y ago
      Overdoses would certainly be reduced by a large extent by legalization. Also, drug education that is more rational and nuanced than "drugs are evil and will ruin your life" will go a long way in preventing the kinds you problems you talk about.

bkudria 12y ago

In the US: http://www.ecstasydata.org/ http://www.ecstasydata.org/

pakled_engineer 12y ago
There's also pillreports.com a basic review site to identify bad street pills

pcthrowaway 12y ago

I wonder how the deep web can protect against two things happening: - users who have an interest in promoting one of the vendors providing them with positive reviews, while other vendors receive negative reviews - users who are known for reviewing samples receiving higher-quality orders Surely there's a way to keep the vendors honest in a more long-term way, as well as gauge the consistency of each, but it eludes me right now.

rwmj 12y ago
The same way these things are / are not dealt with in the "ordinary" web. Ebay must have precisely the same issues.
throwaway7767 12y ago
The second problem is easily solved by the reviewers creating new accounts for each order. In fact it's a better test since newcomers are more likely to be screwed over by a seller than someone with a forum presence who would have more credibility if they complained. The first problem is harder.

rwmj 12y ago

Interesting that the marketplace they talk about (Evolution) closed down a couple of weeks ago with evidence of a huge Bitcoin scam. Seems you can test the honesty of the sellers but not the market :-( http://www.deepdotweb.com/2015/03/18/interview-with-nswgreat-evolution-staff-member/ http://www.deepdotweb.com/2015/03/18/interview-with-nswgreat...

wz1000 12y ago
Multisig solves that problem.

Speakeasys 12y ago

That dude looks like a straight dealer. Lol. DoctorX. But yes I agree if someone is going to put harmful chemicals in their body they might as well prevent any further damage to their body and reduce risk of complications.

CoffeeDregs 12y ago

There is/was a similar organization in California called DanceSafe (which friends used). Still there: http://dancesafe.org/ http://dancesafe.org/ You could/can mail them pills and they would test them for content ratios (not content amounts). Fantastic service to reduce harm.

discardorama 12y ago

I hate to be pedantic, but "Deep Web" is the part of the Web that crawlers can't reach, because it's hidden behind POST requests and JS actions[1], and not nefariously. "Dark Web" is the term they're looking for. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Web http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Web

skizm 12y ago
> She is holding the lab’s latest delivery of a drug bought from the “deep web,” the clandestine corner of the internet that isn’t reachable by normal search engines... Seems like they used the term correctly.
- shubb 12y ago
  Trouble is, the academics talking about deep web don't mean a clandestine corner. They more mean private Facebook pages and uncrawlable product catalogues. Stuff that is part of the normal internet though. It's kinda silly semantics now though, most people seem to use it to talk about illicit hidden stuff. It's like saying, that's not a Hoover it's a vacuume cleaner. This particular article is a bit annoying though because the writer is either confused, trolling, or avoiding describing technical specifics for ethical raisins. Best kind of raisin.