4 ms·

you also need to take things like underemployement into the equation, the main reason there aren't any jobs for people without a college degree, is because peop

by vaksel 17y ago

you also need to take things like underemployement into the equation, the main reason there aren't any jobs for people without a college degree, is because people with college degree are taking jobs at 7-8 bucks an hour just to put food on the table

rdtsc 17y ago
That is probably tied into immigration and welfare policies. An illegal worker from Mexico will pick potatoes for $4/hour, while a poor black person who is a US citizen will probably refuse the same job even at $8/hour (or whatever the minimum wage is these days). A black person will probably rely on welfare. An illegal worker does not have access to the same level of welfare.
- vanekl 17y ago
  Wow, the term Politically Correct means nothing to you. Lawrence Summers got pilloried for less. I'm not sure you can use the term "illegal" workers any more in polite company. I think the New York Times prefers the word "undocumented." And I'm not going to touch the rest of that paragraph. (Mock outrage and major hand-wringing, and a slight whiff of pretentiousness that goes along when I cluck my tongue in a condescending manner.)
- vaksel 17y ago
  cost of living does not allow you to live on $8 an hour. $8/hour means you need 2-3 jobs just to feed your kids. If you don't have 2-3 jobs, you have to make ends meet with $16K a year. Remove the $12K that you'll pay for rent in pretty much any of the major cities. And you have $333 to live on. That won't even cover your basics like gas/electricity and water.
  - ahlatimer 17y ago
    I live a fairly adequate lifestyle making around $16k a year (I'm a college student and only work ~25/hrs per week). That covers rent, gas, food, utilities, and entertainment. Granted, I don't have kids to support and I have a roommate, but it is in fact possible to live on a very modest income.
  - pmorici 17y ago
    There are many cities where rent is significantly cheaper than 1K per month. In those cities where it isn't even the most menial of jobs usually pays slightly more than minimum wage. I agree with the other poster it wouldn't be fun to live on 16K a year but it is certainly workable.
  - pmorici 17y ago
    There are many cities where rent is significantly cheaper than 1K per month. In those cities where it isn't even the most menial of jobs usually pays slightly more than minimum wage. I agree with the other poster it wouldn't be fun to live on 16K a year but it is certainly workable.
- bilbo0s 17y ago
  The people with the highest rate of unemployment however, black men 15 - 24 without high school diplomas, are not eligible for welfare. In all 50 states, welfare is only given to care givers. That is, to people who have custody of children. In most cases, women. That data kind of blows the, 'blacks will just use welfare' theory out of the water. Unless you meant, 'black women with children will just use welfare'. Which, come to think of it, is probably what you meant. But it just seems that the serious unemployment is borne by and large by black men.
  - dschobel 17y ago
    I just looked up my state's (Illinois) welfare application[1] and it doesn't mention anywhere that having dependents is a necessary condition to receive it. If being a care-giver is the policy, they do a good job of hiding it. Also, those children have to come from somewhere so why wouldn't they qualify as dependents if you have court ordered child support payments? [1]http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=33698 http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=33698
    - bilbo0s 17y ago
      Sorry, I originally put this comment in the wrong place. @dschobel In Illinois the same rules hold true. The reason the men are not eligible is because they are not the custodial parent. That is, their children do not live with them. The custodial parent in most of these cases is the mother. The reason the rules are not made more prominent in the application I cannot speak to. It is tucked away at the bottom of the application in the fine print legalese however: "As a condition of eligibility, if I am approved for TANF Cash and/or medical assistance for myself and my children, I understand that I may berequired to cooperate with child support enforcement. Cooperation includes establishment of paternity and/or support enforcement andmodification of child support orders. I assign and give all my rights, title and interest of child support and medical support to the IllinoisDepartment of Healthcare and Family Services as long as I receive TANF Cash/or medical assistance. I understand and agree that any childsupport payments paid through the clerk of the circuit court and through the State Disbursement Unit (SDU) may be forwarded to the IllinoisDepartment of Healthcare and Family Services as long as I receive TANF Cash. I understand that if I apply for TANF Cash and/or medical assistance for my children only, I am not required to cooperate with child support enforcement, but I may request services." Translation, the woman gets welfare, and the state of Illinois will take aggressive action against the father for the purposes of collecting child support. Which, I think, sounds appropriate in that situation. I would guess most states have this same child support enforcement component. If you read through the application fully, you will find a lot of gotchas, with respect to immigration status, custodial disposition of children, etc. etc. But we're digressing. My only point was that the, generally non custodial, father is not eligible to collect welfare. Further, it is an open question as to whether or not some of the young men in question even have children. I suspect the majority do not at 15 - 24 and poor. I suspect an even smaller minority of this group are custodial parents. Now I don't have data to back up that assertion, its just my impression, or prejudice if you like, that young black guys are generally absentee fathers. Not saying that's the case, just that that is my impression. In any case, yeah, no way they would get welfare in any of the 50 states. In fact if they went in and filled out this application their SSN would probably be flagged for child support enforcement.
- nanijoe 17y ago
  A second part of the equation is that paying someone $4/hr is illegal, so the employers who are willing to pay at that rate will usually not consider hiring a US citizen for fear of a lawsuit somewhere down the line. Your argument does not explain the discrepancy between the unemployment rate for white people 15-24 and black people in the same age range, unless you are implying that the young white person will take the job at the same pay rate as an illegal worker would. PS: If you work at Walmart $8/her is par for the course
  - Gormo 17y ago
    Actually, agricultural labor is exempted from FLSA minimum wage requirements.

by vaksel 17y ago

rdtsc 17y ago

That is probably tied into immigration and welfare policies. An illegal worker from Mexico will pick potatoes for $4/hour, while a poor black person who is a US citizen will probably refuse the same job even at $8/hour (or whatever the minimum wage is these days). A black person will probably rely on welfare. An illegal worker does not have access to the same level of welfare.

vanekl 17y ago
Wow, the term Politically Correct means nothing to you. Lawrence Summers got pilloried for less. I'm not sure you can use the term "illegal" workers any more in polite company. I think the New York Times prefers the word "undocumented." And I'm not going to touch the rest of that paragraph. (Mock outrage and major hand-wringing, and a slight whiff of pretentiousness that goes along when I cluck my tongue in a condescending manner.)
vaksel 17y ago
cost of living does not allow you to live on $8 an hour. $8/hour means you need 2-3 jobs just to feed your kids. If you don't have 2-3 jobs, you have to make ends meet with $16K a year. Remove the $12K that you'll pay for rent in pretty much any of the major cities. And you have $333 to live on. That won't even cover your basics like gas/electricity and water.
- ahlatimer 17y ago
  I live a fairly adequate lifestyle making around $16k a year (I'm a college student and only work ~25/hrs per week). That covers rent, gas, food, utilities, and entertainment. Granted, I don't have kids to support and I have a roommate, but it is in fact possible to live on a very modest income.
- pmorici 17y ago
  There are many cities where rent is significantly cheaper than 1K per month. In those cities where it isn't even the most menial of jobs usually pays slightly more than minimum wage. I agree with the other poster it wouldn't be fun to live on 16K a year but it is certainly workable.
- pmorici 17y ago
  There are many cities where rent is significantly cheaper than 1K per month. In those cities where it isn't even the most menial of jobs usually pays slightly more than minimum wage. I agree with the other poster it wouldn't be fun to live on 16K a year but it is certainly workable.
bilbo0s 17y ago
The people with the highest rate of unemployment however, black men 15 - 24 without high school diplomas, are not eligible for welfare. In all 50 states, welfare is only given to care givers. That is, to people who have custody of children. In most cases, women. That data kind of blows the, 'blacks will just use welfare' theory out of the water. Unless you meant, 'black women with children will just use welfare'. Which, come to think of it, is probably what you meant. But it just seems that the serious unemployment is borne by and large by black men.
- dschobel 17y ago
  I just looked up my state's (Illinois) welfare application[1] and it doesn't mention anywhere that having dependents is a necessary condition to receive it. If being a care-giver is the policy, they do a good job of hiding it. Also, those children have to come from somewhere so why wouldn't they qualify as dependents if you have court ordered child support payments? [1]http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=33698 http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=33698
  - bilbo0s 17y ago
    Sorry, I originally put this comment in the wrong place. @dschobel In Illinois the same rules hold true. The reason the men are not eligible is because they are not the custodial parent. That is, their children do not live with them. The custodial parent in most of these cases is the mother. The reason the rules are not made more prominent in the application I cannot speak to. It is tucked away at the bottom of the application in the fine print legalese however: "As a condition of eligibility, if I am approved for TANF Cash and/or medical assistance for myself and my children, I understand that I may berequired to cooperate with child support enforcement. Cooperation includes establishment of paternity and/or support enforcement andmodification of child support orders. I assign and give all my rights, title and interest of child support and medical support to the IllinoisDepartment of Healthcare and Family Services as long as I receive TANF Cash/or medical assistance. I understand and agree that any childsupport payments paid through the clerk of the circuit court and through the State Disbursement Unit (SDU) may be forwarded to the IllinoisDepartment of Healthcare and Family Services as long as I receive TANF Cash. I understand that if I apply for TANF Cash and/or medical assistance for my children only, I am not required to cooperate with child support enforcement, but I may request services." Translation, the woman gets welfare, and the state of Illinois will take aggressive action against the father for the purposes of collecting child support. Which, I think, sounds appropriate in that situation. I would guess most states have this same child support enforcement component. If you read through the application fully, you will find a lot of gotchas, with respect to immigration status, custodial disposition of children, etc. etc. But we're digressing. My only point was that the, generally non custodial, father is not eligible to collect welfare. Further, it is an open question as to whether or not some of the young men in question even have children. I suspect the majority do not at 15 - 24 and poor. I suspect an even smaller minority of this group are custodial parents. Now I don't have data to back up that assertion, its just my impression, or prejudice if you like, that young black guys are generally absentee fathers. Not saying that's the case, just that that is my impression. In any case, yeah, no way they would get welfare in any of the 50 states. In fact if they went in and filled out this application their SSN would probably be flagged for child support enforcement.
nanijoe 17y ago
A second part of the equation is that paying someone $4/hr is illegal, so the employers who are willing to pay at that rate will usually not consider hiring a US citizen for fear of a lawsuit somewhere down the line. Your argument does not explain the discrepancy between the unemployment rate for white people 15-24 and black people in the same age range, unless you are implying that the young white person will take the job at the same pay rate as an illegal worker would. PS: If you work at Walmart $8/her is par for the course
- Gormo 17y ago
  Actually, agricultural labor is exempted from FLSA minimum wage requirements.