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Unfortunately yesterday's announcement about stopping development of Chrome Dart VM has put a dampener on things for me. I'm not particularly interested when t

by notsony 12y ago

Unfortunately yesterday's announcement about stopping development of Chrome Dart VM has put a dampener on things for me. I'm not particularly interested when there are other projects like TypeScript which also transpile to Javascript. It's also making me question the long-term viability of Golang, given Google's history of shutting down projects abruptly. Are any important teams inside Google using Golang for heavy-lifting? At least Dart talked about the Google Ads team using Dart. One of the goals behing Golang was go have C++ programmers move to the language, but instead it's Python and Ruby programmers picking it up. So if C++ Googlers aren't using the language, it might imply that no critical systems are being built with Golang. Also look at the resources that were initially put behind Dart. Meanwhile look at Golang, after all these years there is no official IDE. You would think that if Google were serious about Golang they would have put more resources into developing the ecosystem. It seems like Google want to have their celebrity employee, Rob Pike, in order to attract worker bees to apply for the grunt work at Google. Much like yesterday's post about Bjarne Strostroup working at Morgan Stanley.

tree_of_item 12y ago
Long term viability of Go? Go has tons of activity (Kubernetes, Docker, ...), millions of lines at Google[0] and many conferences, Dart is just now getting its first conference later this year. You should be questioning the long term viability of Dart, not Go. [0]: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-codereviews/DrGaD8OdQqM/Er1HfmsI3joJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-codereviews/DrG...
- notsony 12y ago
  What am I looking for in that link? I may be mistaken but doesn't google3 refer to third party libraries, and not code written internally for Google? All I want to know is if a major team at Google is using Golang for any critical services. I don't care for conferences, but I do care about tools. Google put resources into developing a full IDE for Dart, yet nothing for Go...
  - tree_of_item 12y ago
    Does Google Cloud Platform/Kubernetes count as a major team/critical service? https://github.com/googlecloudplatform/kubernetes https://github.com/googlecloudplatform/kubernetes
  - bmurphy1976 12y ago
    They're using it: https://talks.golang.org/2013/oscon-dl.slide#1 https://talks.golang.org/2013/oscon-dl.slide#1 Also, does Go really need a full IDE? I'm pretty happy using Sublime Text. Perhaps the JavaScript types are just more demanding about their IDEs?
    - notsony 12y ago
      I've seen Brad talk about this. It's the same example that has been trotted out over the years. Not that impressed. If some of the Gmail or Adwords system has been ported or re-written to Go that would be impressive. An IDE is important for many developers. Go would certainly benefit from being able to develop and debug in one place and have all the project management stuff handled. Why rely on a third party like Sublime Text? Visual Studio, Xcode (warts and all) and IntelliJ are good IDEs that boost productivity. The question is why hasn't resources been made available by Goodle, whether money or personnel, to do something here? Maybe work with IntelliJ to create a Go version of their IDE like they have for other languages and DART?
      - bdcravens 12y ago
        I think the market fills the void if there's demand. No one worked with JetBrains to create RubyMine; they saw the need. (edit: the company is JetBrains, not IntelliJ)
      - bmurphy1976 12y ago
        Looking at your other comments I think you're just too demanding. I'm not going to chase around the internet to convince you otherwise. I'm comfortable with the level of support and that's good enough for me (and many others). Same goes for Dart. If you can't be convinced otherwise then just use Java.
danellis 12y ago
Isn't it just called Go?
- cyri 12y ago
  Try searching for "Go" on some search engines ... therefore tag your posts/questions/tweets with "GoLang" to make it easier to find 8-)
EugeneOZ 12y ago
All is pretty fine with Golang, especially inside Google. Tweet to illustrate: https://twitter.com/rob_pike/status/575853496592826369 https://twitter.com/rob_pike/status/575853496592826369 And I think all will be fine with Dart too. Today's release is very interesting for server-side development. In both cases, on the server and on the client side, people will use Dart when they prefer Dart to JS. And difference not only in syntax or amount of sugar, but in "how the whole system works" (don't know how to say it). And when you know that most profitable web project in human history is committed to Dart, then you can be sure, Dart is here to stay :)
- notsony 12y ago
  That tweet has no information - why is it of any significance?
  - EugeneOZ 12y ago
    Maybe because Rob Pike (one of Go authors) works at Google and many Google developers often write how they glad to write things in Go for Google needs. Next step is up to you - use search engines to get more information :)
    - EugeneOZ 12y ago
      Last what I remember: https://blog.twitter.com/2015/handling-five-billion-sessions-a-day-in-real-time https://blog.twitter.com/2015/handling-five-billion-sessions... (not Google, Twitter, but still big company).
- keypusher 12y ago
  Are they really committed to it though? The same way they were committed to Google Code? Google Glass? Google Video? Google Reader? Google+? All Google projects that they were "committed" to at one time. Now dead or basically abandoned.
  - Cthulhu_ 12y ago
peteretep 12y ago
> yesterday's announcement about stopping development of > Chrome Dart VM has put a dampener on things for me. I had the opposite reaction; non-reliance on Chrome incorporating a VM means it might actually have long-term legs.
aikah 12y ago
> One of the goals behing Golang was go have C++ programmers move to the language where did you hear that ? C++ programmers didn't move to D why the hell would they want to move to Go , a garbage collected language ?
- barosl 12y ago
  Rob Pike, one of the creators of Go, said so: > Although we expected C++ programmers to see Go as an alternative, instead most Go programmers come from languages like Python and Ruby. Very few come from C++.[1] I thought this was obvious, considering their initial approach to promote Go: "Go is a systems language". But now they abandoned the phrasing. [1] http://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2012/06/less-is-exponentially-more.html http://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2012/06/less-is-exponentia...
  - aikah 12y ago
    Ok, well they were wrong. How can something be a "system language" when it's garbage collected ? and if people learned anything from D you don't say "X is a replacement from C++" or your language will get bad rap.
    - sacado2 12y ago
      By "system", I don't think they meant "kernel". I think they meant "non-user-facing program". Think server/batch programs, which are way too often programmed in C/C++ although they don't need to.
jug 12y ago
I'm also a stronger believer in TypeScript not because it's necessarily "better" than Dart, whatever that would mean, but because it was designed from a much MUCH more pragmatic perspective with TypeScript being a mere superset of Javascript. So while both transpile to Javascript and that's great when it comes to cross-browser reach, a large Dart codebase makes me nervous since there's a high barrier of both entry and exit if Google would abandon the project, which they have shown themselves to be good at doing, especially with little to no forewarning. TypeScript's approach just feels more sensible to me. I like the vision set by Dart -- a complete toolkit in language as well as API for the modern web, client as well as server -- and while TypeScript may not share it, it does share the vision of greatly simplifying large scale web application development. Further, I think it even surpasses Dart on that front for above reasons and general workflow and migration reasons which cannot be underestimated in particular for a new language.
- fithisux 12y ago
  Dart comes with an Eclipse IDE. Cross-platform by default. even Haxe needs Flashdevelop which is Windows only. Dart is better for cross-platform development.
lmm 12y ago
> Unfortunately yesterday's announcement about stopping development of Chrome Dart VM has put a dampener on things for me. I'm not particularly interested when there are other projects like TypeScript which also transpile to Javascript. Why is that an important difference? The advantages of Dart over TypeScript are that it has better semantics that result in more readable/maintainable code, not that it does or doesn't run in a different VM.

by notsony 12y ago

tree_of_item 12y ago

Long term viability of Go? Go has tons of activity (Kubernetes, Docker, ...), millions of lines at Google[0] and many conferences, Dart is just now getting its first conference later this year. You should be questioning the long term viability of Dart, not Go. [0]: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-codereviews/DrGaD8OdQqM/Er1HfmsI3joJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-codereviews/DrG...

notsony 12y ago
What am I looking for in that link? I may be mistaken but doesn't google3 refer to third party libraries, and not code written internally for Google? All I want to know is if a major team at Google is using Golang for any critical services. I don't care for conferences, but I do care about tools. Google put resources into developing a full IDE for Dart, yet nothing for Go...
- tree_of_item 12y ago
  Does Google Cloud Platform/Kubernetes count as a major team/critical service? https://github.com/googlecloudplatform/kubernetes https://github.com/googlecloudplatform/kubernetes
- bmurphy1976 12y ago
  They're using it: https://talks.golang.org/2013/oscon-dl.slide#1 https://talks.golang.org/2013/oscon-dl.slide#1 Also, does Go really need a full IDE? I'm pretty happy using Sublime Text. Perhaps the JavaScript types are just more demanding about their IDEs?
  - notsony 12y ago
    I've seen Brad talk about this. It's the same example that has been trotted out over the years. Not that impressed. If some of the Gmail or Adwords system has been ported or re-written to Go that would be impressive. An IDE is important for many developers. Go would certainly benefit from being able to develop and debug in one place and have all the project management stuff handled. Why rely on a third party like Sublime Text? Visual Studio, Xcode (warts and all) and IntelliJ are good IDEs that boost productivity. The question is why hasn't resources been made available by Goodle, whether money or personnel, to do something here? Maybe work with IntelliJ to create a Go version of their IDE like they have for other languages and DART?
    - bdcravens 12y ago
      I think the market fills the void if there's demand. No one worked with JetBrains to create RubyMine; they saw the need. (edit: the company is JetBrains, not IntelliJ)
    - bmurphy1976 12y ago
      Looking at your other comments I think you're just too demanding. I'm not going to chase around the internet to convince you otherwise. I'm comfortable with the level of support and that's good enough for me (and many others). Same goes for Dart. If you can't be convinced otherwise then just use Java.

danellis 12y ago

Isn't it just called Go?

cyri 12y ago
Try searching for "Go" on some search engines ... therefore tag your posts/questions/tweets with "GoLang" to make it easier to find 8-)

EugeneOZ 12y ago

All is pretty fine with Golang, especially inside Google. Tweet to illustrate: https://twitter.com/rob_pike/status/575853496592826369 https://twitter.com/rob_pike/status/575853496592826369 And I think all will be fine with Dart too. Today's release is very interesting for server-side development. In both cases, on the server and on the client side, people will use Dart when they prefer Dart to JS. And difference not only in syntax or amount of sugar, but in "how the whole system works" (don't know how to say it). And when you know that most profitable web project in human history is committed to Dart, then you can be sure, Dart is here to stay :)

notsony 12y ago
That tweet has no information - why is it of any significance?
- EugeneOZ 12y ago
  Maybe because Rob Pike (one of Go authors) works at Google and many Google developers often write how they glad to write things in Go for Google needs. Next step is up to you - use search engines to get more information :)
  - EugeneOZ 12y ago
    Last what I remember: https://blog.twitter.com/2015/handling-five-billion-sessions-a-day-in-real-time https://blog.twitter.com/2015/handling-five-billion-sessions... (not Google, Twitter, but still big company).
keypusher 12y ago
Are they really committed to it though? The same way they were committed to Google Code? Google Glass? Google Video? Google Reader? Google+? All Google projects that they were "committed" to at one time. Now dead or basically abandoned.
- Cthulhu_ 12y ago

peteretep 12y ago

> yesterday's announcement about stopping development of > Chrome Dart VM has put a dampener on things for me. I had the opposite reaction; non-reliance on Chrome incorporating a VM means it might actually have long-term legs.

aikah 12y ago

> One of the goals behing Golang was go have C++ programmers move to the language where did you hear that ? C++ programmers didn't move to D why the hell would they want to move to Go , a garbage collected language ?

barosl 12y ago
Rob Pike, one of the creators of Go, said so: > Although we expected C++ programmers to see Go as an alternative, instead most Go programmers come from languages like Python and Ruby. Very few come from C++.[1] I thought this was obvious, considering their initial approach to promote Go: "Go is a systems language". But now they abandoned the phrasing. [1] http://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2012/06/less-is-exponentially-more.html http://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2012/06/less-is-exponentia...
- aikah 12y ago
  Ok, well they were wrong. How can something be a "system language" when it's garbage collected ? and if people learned anything from D you don't say "X is a replacement from C++" or your language will get bad rap.
  - sacado2 12y ago
    By "system", I don't think they meant "kernel". I think they meant "non-user-facing program". Think server/batch programs, which are way too often programmed in C/C++ although they don't need to.

jug 12y ago

I'm also a stronger believer in TypeScript not because it's necessarily "better" than Dart, whatever that would mean, but because it was designed from a much MUCH more pragmatic perspective with TypeScript being a mere superset of Javascript. So while both transpile to Javascript and that's great when it comes to cross-browser reach, a large Dart codebase makes me nervous since there's a high barrier of both entry and exit if Google would abandon the project, which they have shown themselves to be good at doing, especially with little to no forewarning. TypeScript's approach just feels more sensible to me. I like the vision set by Dart -- a complete toolkit in language as well as API for the modern web, client as well as server -- and while TypeScript may not share it, it does share the vision of greatly simplifying large scale web application development. Further, I think it even surpasses Dart on that front for above reasons and general workflow and migration reasons which cannot be underestimated in particular for a new language.

fithisux 12y ago
Dart comes with an Eclipse IDE. Cross-platform by default. even Haxe needs Flashdevelop which is Windows only. Dart is better for cross-platform development.

lmm 12y ago

> Unfortunately yesterday's announcement about stopping development of Chrome Dart VM has put a dampener on things for me. I'm not particularly interested when there are other projects like TypeScript which also transpile to Javascript. Why is that an important difference? The advantages of Dart over TypeScript are that it has better semantics that result in more readable/maintainable code, not that it does or doesn't run in a different VM.