3 ms·

That's a nice thought, but how would ATC determine what needs to be done? We are only finding out that this was an intentional act long after the plane has hit

That's a nice thought, but how would ATC determine what needs to be done? We are only finding out that this was an intentional act long after the plane has hit the ground. For all ATC knows, opening the door to the cockpit could be the WRONG action. If no one is responding from the cockpit, they have no clue what is going on other than the telemetry they are getting from radar and the plane's systems (which in this case wouldn't tell them much). In fact, pilots are trained to communicate AFTER they have gotten the plane in a state to where they can either continue the flight or ditch safely if communication would distract them from the task at hand. ATC knows this, so even if they saw the plane dropping like a sack of rocks, they would probably assume that there was a problem and that the pilots are in a position in which a steep dive will help mitigate the problem (which can happen, such as depressurization).

jcfrei 12y ago
If you add some additional information on the status of the plane (engines, electronics, etc) in addition to the telemetry you could infer much more on the current situation aboard the plane. In this case the simple reversal of the initiation of the descent (as a precautionary measure) might have prevented the unfolding of events. Obviously we can all think of corner cases where the pilots and the ATC would come to different (and potentially disastrous) conclusions while being unable to communicate and resolve these differences. Ultimately I think that remote control or a comparable safety measure will become a necessity in civil aviation, because passengers will demand it to feel safer.
- Rooster61 12y ago
  "In this case the simple reversal of the initiation of the descent (as a precautionary measure) might have prevented the unfolding of events." I think you might have missed my point. What telemetry do you think would have given ATC enough information in 8 minutes that would tell them reversing the descent is the correct course of action? If anything, the data in this flight would have indicated that the dive was initiated by the pilot, and would suggest allowing him to continue the actions. And how long would they have to discuss what should be done? The descent started 8 minutes before the plane hit the ground. That is a very short amount of time for people on the ground without full information to make the call. They would probably spend at least half that time trying to make contact with the pilot. The bottom line is that the person best appraised of how to fly the plane is the one behind the controls, and that is how aviation has traditionally treated these situations. If a pilot wants to bring down a plane bad enough, it's mighty hard to stop them. Anyways, and this is my speculation, I am fairly certain that remote control has been brought up many times before in aviation, and that there is a good reason why it isn't presently implemented. And as for the corner cases, those corner cases matter. This isn't a software engineering problem we are talking about.
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    Precisely. People are proposing complex algorithmic solutions to a problem where applying such things might potentially make things worse. Generally, civil aviation is remarkably safe, and we should not go with knee-jerk potentially counter-productive reactions. Airline pilots are a highly selective group of people, well trained, and they are showing every day how they work with integrity. That someone has once gone over and killed himself and others should not obscure our assessment of the situation. We have about 88 000 departures per day in the world. We don't accept even ppm-range risks of disaster if we know how to mitigate them, but when we're this low, we need to be careful that "improvements" don't actually degrade performance.

jcfrei 12y ago

If you add some additional information on the status of the plane (engines, electronics, etc) in addition to the telemetry you could infer much more on the current situation aboard the plane. In this case the simple reversal of the initiation of the descent (as a precautionary measure) might have prevented the unfolding of events. Obviously we can all think of corner cases where the pilots and the ATC would come to different (and potentially disastrous) conclusions while being unable to communicate and resolve these differences. Ultimately I think that remote control or a comparable safety measure will become a necessity in civil aviation, because passengers will demand it to feel safer.

Rooster61 12y ago
"In this case the simple reversal of the initiation of the descent (as a precautionary measure) might have prevented the unfolding of events." I think you might have missed my point. What telemetry do you think would have given ATC enough information in 8 minutes that would tell them reversing the descent is the correct course of action? If anything, the data in this flight would have indicated that the dive was initiated by the pilot, and would suggest allowing him to continue the actions. And how long would they have to discuss what should be done? The descent started 8 minutes before the plane hit the ground. That is a very short amount of time for people on the ground without full information to make the call. They would probably spend at least half that time trying to make contact with the pilot. The bottom line is that the person best appraised of how to fly the plane is the one behind the controls, and that is how aviation has traditionally treated these situations. If a pilot wants to bring down a plane bad enough, it's mighty hard to stop them. Anyways, and this is my speculation, I am fairly certain that remote control has been brought up many times before in aviation, and that there is a good reason why it isn't presently implemented. And as for the corner cases, those corner cases matter. This isn't a software engineering problem we are talking about.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  Precisely. People are proposing complex algorithmic solutions to a problem where applying such things might potentially make things worse. Generally, civil aviation is remarkably safe, and we should not go with knee-jerk potentially counter-productive reactions. Airline pilots are a highly selective group of people, well trained, and they are showing every day how they work with integrity. That someone has once gone over and killed himself and others should not obscure our assessment of the situation. We have about 88 000 departures per day in the world. We don't accept even ppm-range risks of disaster if we know how to mitigate them, but when we're this low, we need to be careful that "improvements" don't actually degrade performance.