11 ms·

One Professional Russian Troll Tells All

268 points by sbt 12y ago

tormeh 12y ago
I think the Chinese government used to do this with The Economist's forums. I think they've stopped, for some reason. I don't really read the comments there much, though; it's all garbage.
- cgh 12y ago
  The 50 Cent Army is still at it. I think newspapers have become a lot better about filtering them out. The Globe and Mail (Canada) was absolutely overrun for a while and they still pop up now and again.
  - MollyR 12y ago
    Could it be the "50 Cent Army" just got better ? They learned from their mistakes, and are becoming more subversive ?
- Paradigma11 12y ago
  I noticed this also. A shame really since they were so much better than their russian counterparts. Those guys were REALLY well briefed and had lots of different strings of argument ready.
dreamweapon 12y ago
Here's a link to the non-mobile version: http://www.rferl.org/content/how-to-guide-russian-trolling-trolls/26919999.html http://www.rferl.org/content/how-to-guide-russian-trolling-t...
FreakyT 12y ago
I find it interesting that they use a "villain" troll as a virtual strawman to knock down -- I feel like that adds a layer of subtlety that wouldn't really exist with solely the pro-Russia content.
- JonnieCache 12y ago
  The good guys are known to use much more in-depth techniques than that, see: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipula... especially: https://prod01-cdn02.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/2014/02/deception_p12.png https://prod01-cdn02.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/20... Based on the state of that powerpoint slide they're probably achieving fuck-all in practice.
tobiasu 12y ago
RFERL. Enough said.
- JonnieCache 12y ago
  lol. Nice catch. RFE/RL is supervised by the Broadcasting Board of Governors, an agency overseeing all U.S. federal government international broadcasting services. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty And so we enter the wilderness of mirrors... (FWIW the radio in my kitchen is set to the BBC world service, which is funded exclusively by the foreign office...)
  - dmschulman 12y ago
    You have to separate the medium and the message. Does the RFE/RL have self-interest in disclosing a story that is critical of Russia? Probably. Are the facts of the story in dispute because Radio Free Europe happened to publish the interview? This I'm not so sure of. Also writing a comment like this in the context of the linked article fills me with a sense of dread. Am I merely emulating the villain troll perspective by refuting your claim and (seemingly) suiting my biases? Will it be possible to have discussions in the future without a subtext of having some covert motive?
    - JonnieCache 12y ago
      How do you think I feel? The first thing I did in this thread was link to an image! (For the record, I agree with your view. If you want to feel even more confused about the issue, check out this video concerning Vladislav Surkov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcy8uLjRHPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcy8uLjRHPM) We should start a pool on who and what is being funded by the russian govt. UKIP 10/1 Pussy Riot 8/1 Adam Curtis 9/2 Uber 12/1 any takers?
      - dmschulman 12y ago
        Yeah that segment is incredibly insightful. Tactics of deliberate misinformation and confusion reek of 1950s/1960s Cold War sentiment (on both sides).
ShannonSofield 12y ago
Truly fascinating. They should make these services for hire, there are some brands that would kill for this kind of content farm.
- jklinger410 12y ago
  They do.
- emodendroket 12y ago
  Ah yes, until now no one has had the idea to abuse comment forms and Web forums to promote products and services. You could become rich with this unique idea.
fierycatnet 12y ago
Ukrainian situation is a complex one and brings out the worst in people, at least in post-Soviet countries. It's not uncommon for people to have different view on this issue. I know families who fight over it, people breaking up over it, it's pretty emotional subject. So with this in mind, I don't think there is some sort of conspiratorial force at work to post pro-Kremlin position on online. I don't doubt that there are paid people who spam forums but just because someone is voicing their opinion in favor of Russian official stance it doesn't mean automatic paid shill. I've been following this conflict since 2013 and I have to say that all involved sides are offenders of "their" version of events in mass media.
- dmschulman 12y ago
  I think the cause for skepticism in this circumstance was the heavy handed pro-Russian voice that seemed to dominate the conversation online over the situation in Ukraine. That and the mountain of evidence which demonstrates how Russia makes a concerted effort to command the media narrative of a story through online comments.
  - geoka9 12y ago
    Just the other day Russia announced additional cuts in their annual budget. Almost every expenditure was cut across the board, except for the military and propaganda (e.g. Russia Today received a 5 bln increase).
- frandroid 12y ago
  The fact that there are two sides debating the story doesn't invalidate the idea that Russian would hire pro trolls.
  - ommunist 12y ago
    this reminds me C&C Red Alert game. But in the end hypnotizing Yuri fails in front of the good old American nuke. Russians may employ a thousand of pro-trolls. But they cannot filter (and possibly change) global traffic realtime like NSA does.
MrClean 12y ago
Patiently waiting for villain troll, link troll and picture troll to work this thread.
- smtddr 12y ago
  That part freaked me out because that was one of the ways I thought I could tell authentic from propaganda. I thought people in power didn't know how to blend in naturally to forums and their comments always stood out, but it looks like they do get it. Now I'm worried that my propaganda/astroturfing indicators don't work as well as I thought they did.
  - Practicality 12y ago
    The article covers it quite well. The trolls generally don't really know what they're talking about and often don't make sense. So if you ignore the nonsensical people you will ignore the trolls too. It's a pretty good rule to follow anyway.
    - colin_jack 12y ago
      At least in Guardian comments they make no sense, are intensely rude, and tend not to reply to comments. As you say it makes them very easy to spot.
  - stingraycharles 12y ago
    From what I understand from the article, I think you are overestimating the quality of the arguments they bring forward.
  - MollyR 12y ago
    You probably need constant vigilance to be aware how propaganda is being spread. Everyone is probably constantly trying new ways to spread it. Truth seems to be under attack in every direction.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
tigrella 12y ago
It's all about propaganda. Looks like not much has changed in Russian government ideology over the last 25 years.
- denom 12y ago
  Doesn't every well financed institution do similar things? I thought that was the substance of public relations: getting your side of the story out there. It even happens on a small scale e.g. Yelp reviews.
  - MollyR 12y ago
    Really even yelp reviews? How much vigilance does one need to not be coopted by propaganda . . .
  - comex 12y ago
    No, every well financed institution does not hire people to role play hundreds of sockpuppets to create a false impression of support for its message.
    - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
      Actually the US has an entire (metaphorical) army of think tanks and other propaganda outlets which do exactly that. The sockpuppets tend to be more influential than drive-by commenters though. Some of them actually pretend to be respectable journalists and opinion-formers. The Church Committee in the 1970s blew the lid on this. Operation Mockingbird is a famous historical example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird The National Endowment for Democracy is more recent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democrac... Given history, it would take someone with more faith in open government than I have to believe there are no equivalent online operations today.
  - sorincos 12y ago
    It's one thing getting your side of the story, and another one blatantly overflooding the forums with your side of the story. In electoral campaigns there are rules against such practices, but bought reviews or fake followers are issues way more difficult to address. And as somebody else put it, financial institutions seldom try to justify with it an invasion of other countries.
schandur 12y ago
How is this different from Israel or China? Genuine question.
- ikeboy 12y ago
  If you have interviews with people who used to work for either of those doing the same thing, I'd love to see them.
  - cgh 12y ago
    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/10/china%E2%80%99s-paid-trolls-meet-50-cent-party http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/10/china%... An interview with a member of China's 50 Cent Party.
    - ikeboy 12y ago
      That's interesting. Do you have anything from Israel?
      - cgh 12y ago
        No.
- dmschulman 12y ago
  There is no difference procedure-wise. In execution however, Israel and China aren't invading foreign nations and using the online peanut gallery to try and sway public opinion on the matter. Maybe you could make a case for Palestine or the Senkaku Islands dispute but I don't think those examples would hold muster for a multitude of reasons.
  - frandroid 12y ago
    Well, Palestine is already invaded and occupied, I guess that's different...
  - aikah 12y ago
osipov 12y ago
It is fascinating that this article comes out in context of Broadcast Board of Governors announcing that US is losing the information war with Russia. Surprisingly it does not occur to the media that telling the truth is the best antidote to Russian propaganda. Instead, the government is complaining that "broadcasters are not always in tune with U.S. foreign policy objectives." Frankly, since I'm paying my taxes to US government, I want free and independent journalism, not the one that is driven by advertisers, corporate sponsors, or US foreign objectives. We used to have that before 1990s when just 6 major media conglomerates ate up 90% of the media companies. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/25/usa-broadcasting-idUSL2N0WP23620150325 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/25/usa-broadcasting-i...
- wtbob 12y ago
  > It is fascinating that this article comes out in context of Broadcast Board of Governors announcing that US is losing the information war with Russia. Surprisingly it does not occur to the media that telling the truth is the best antidote to Russian propaganda. Is it though? I know that in a business context I've often been told that I have an 'incredible ability to see both sides of a question'; that's actually a problem, because at some point one has to decide for one side or another on a particular question. Likewise, in real life there often aren't cut-and-dried issues: rather, there are two (or more!) sides, each with valid perspectives, valid grudges, and they can't all win; indeed, in some cases compromise is simply impossible. And yet people must decide between them. Indeed, the more one learns the truth about an historical conflict, the less obvious is the Right Thing to do in that situation. But what great masses of people need is a clear, obvious Right Thing. You don't win WWII by emphasising that the post-WWI plebiscites were fixed against Germany, or that Japan had some valid grievances against the U.S.
  - osipov 12y ago
    wow your reply is as off topic as it gets...care to connect the dots?
    - xtrumanx 12y ago
ommunist 12y ago
The other side does the same. Here is the story. I have a client - small market research company, covering Russia. I made bilingual website for them. When Ukrainian conflict started, their Russian contact form was heavily abused by some pro-Ukrainian trolls, posting physical threats to company employees (UK-based, by the way). I coded check against vocabulary, but it appeared, trolls were restlessly trying to bypass my hidden rules for business conversation. It took a week of polishing vocabulary rules. And I added math captcha. In the end I won. They even wrote me a give up letter. Their IPs were mostly Polish and French. UPD: The hosting was US-based. So they were deliberately looking for Russian forms.
- ak1394 12y ago
  It's not quite the same though? I doubt there is a facility somewhere in Ukraine where people are getting paid to peddle government propaganda on the Internet.
  - c_los 12y ago
    That's it guys, case solved. This guy doubts it. :P
    - ak1394 12y ago
      What's your point?
      - knivets 12y ago
        That you are the villain type (from the article)
  - M8 12y ago
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm "Victoria Nuland Admits: US Has Invested $5 Billion In The Development of Ukrainian, 'Democratic Institutions'".
sorincos 12y ago
The Romanian independent press publishes from time to time inquiries (sometimes undercover) about similar paid structures used by local parties (PDL, PSD...) during electoral campaigns and not only. First time I've read how they are organized and how much they get paid was like in 2009 (here the Google Translate version https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.romanialibera.ro%2Fspecial%2Finvestigatii%2Fautodenunt--doua-saptamani-i-am-haituit-pe-internet-pe-adversarii-lui-crin-antonescu-170269&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...), but I'm sure the technique is in place since long.
aulona 12y ago
Could this be a good marketing tactic to acquire users for consumer facing products?
- ommunist 12y ago
  Absolutely. Compare this to effects of positive or negative reviews on Amazon. I say - hire Russian troll if you are on the mass-market with review-based reputation on product descriptions. Imagine you have +100 positive reviews overnight. For a hundred bucks its a bargain!
dismal2 12y ago
I'll wait for RT to write a retort and just ignore both of these government mouth pieces.
tech2000 12y ago
I wonder if fox news has the same setup?
probably_wrong 12y ago
I'm fairly sure someone smarter and with more time than me could trace an interesting parallel between East and West policies when it comes to the internet, comparing the leaks about GCHQ[1] and this post. Perhaps an "infinite monkeys" vs "carefully targeted" approach? Also, I may or may not be an employee who was told to come and disrupt the discussion here. So there's that too. [1] https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipula...
- xnull2guest 12y ago
  Here's a start for the US. Incomplete list of domestic stuff: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856218 like "public opinion campaigns": http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/us/20generals.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/us/20generals.html?pagewan... Incomplete list of international stuff: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8709976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8709976 like using social media to kindle revolutions: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/usaid-effort-to-undermine-cuban-government-with-fake-twitter-another-anti-castro-failure/2014/04/03/c0142cc0-bb75-11e3-9a05-c739f29ccb08_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/usaid-effort-t... Some things almost sound like science fiction, like the DoD program to predict successful overseas propaganda by observing brain scans of test subjects: http://minerva.dtic.mil/doc/samplewp-Lieberman.pdf http://minerva.dtic.mil/doc/samplewp-Lieberman.pdf
breitling 12y ago
It would be foolish to think our countries don't do this. The U.S., Canada, Israel, they all have propaganda campaigns of their own.
- kazinator 12y ago
  Yeah, just like we also jail girl punk band members if they express something against the government or religion.
  - lmm 12y ago
    When they also vandalize a church? Um yes. Yes we do.
    - Squarel 12y ago
      They did not vandalize a church. They stood on the altar. Afaik, they caused no physical damage to the church, nor defaced anything. I don't think people get multi-year sentences for saying bad words in a church ;)
    - wavefunction 12y ago
      That's a straw man argument though, as Pussy Riot didn't vandalize any church unless there's a new event I don't know about.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    - kazinator 12y ago
      Yes they vandalized a church! Just like Russians or their assisted rebels didn't shoot down that passenger plane. It's all made clear in the Russian press, blogs and forum postings!
- ccvannorman 12y ago
  NO............! Not US! /s
mehhhhhhh 12y ago
If it is written, people believe it. I think a general education in reasoning, criticism and logic, that would happen along with the typical primary/secondary courses( math, english ) would help not just in this case, but also in many other areas.
m_mueller 12y ago
This is eerily close to what two of the main characters in Ender's Game are doing in order to change events. Internet, the blogosphere, comments, trolls, it was all predicted with quite a bit of detail in that book from 1985.
- siegecraft 12y ago
  If I recall, that was a hilarious optimistic view of things, where there was high level/scholarly debate online and people were persuaded by great rhetoric.. quite a departure from the race to the bottom, cesspool of online commentary as it exists today.
  - m_mueller 12y ago
    I agree. Also the impact today doesn't turn out to be that big as described in the book (although that might be because we haven't yet had someone like the Wiggins family?). But still, the mechanism itself was all there.
- watmough 12y ago
  And satirized by XKCD: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/locke_and_demosthenes.png http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/locke_and_demosthenes.png
jklinger410 12y ago
I saw this all over reddit when that airplane was shot down over Ukraine. Vote brigading and shill accounts corrupted reddit long ago. These tactics have probably been in use since before reddit even existed. The internet is essentially a big propaganda machine and you can't till what is what unless you are keen and aware.
- jrockway 12y ago
  > Vote brigading and shill accounts corrupted reddit long ago. Too many people in one subreddit killed reddit. Go to the outskirts. It's fine.
- borgia 12y ago
  >The internet is essentially a big propaganda machine and you can't till what is what unless you are keen and aware. Indeed. Governments including those in the Five Eyes, Russia, China, Israel and more have been shown to have massive operations - JTRIG for one - that seek to disrupt and manipulate online discourse, create and spread false information, etc. PR firms run rampant across social media sites, forums, etc. and disrupt and manipulate online discourse and the flow of information. Everything from the largest companies in the world to small local restaurants engage in manipulating how their company and its actions are perceived. News entities, small and large, serve their corporate interests and promote whatever they want promoted, or rally against whatever they want rallied against. And then people, with their inherent biases, buying into propaganda, toeing the party line, etc. do their own part in the same, whether it's in spreading purposely created disinformation that they believe to be true, trying to silence those that disagree with them and more. One of the most toxic things I've seen is the rise in very rapidly dismissing a statement that one disagrees with as being that of "trolling" or "shilling" in order to shut down the discussion. With regards to Reddit, the fact that moderator accounts, accounts with large numbers of upvotes, etc. can be readily bought online says more than needs to be said about the bizarre behaviour on display on that site every day. Wikipedia has been utterly bastardized. And so it goes on. It's a shame to see a tool that was created for sharing information being so heavily corrupted. Widespread propaganda from all sides, mass surveillance, the active actions of intelligence agencies such as the recent CIA attempt to inspire an uprising in Cuba, etc. It has become very hard to know what to trust online now. It's sad, but not unexpected, and one can only wonder what the future holds for it.
cubano 12y ago
Sure...propaganda generated for the direct purpose of trying to influence the masses. It has been around forever and is used by everyone from governments to multinationals to mom-and-pops up the road. However, my question is this...is a "troll" just defined as someone who disagrees with you? For example, I am sure, as unpleasant as it may seem, that there are plenty of people who sincerely think it's good that Russia invaded Ukraine...if these people voice their support, are they "trolling"? How are you supposed to tell the difference? Is calling someone a "troll" just a way to try to quickly marginalize any POV they may be trying to defend or promote? And if so, isn't it just a shortcut to censorship of any ideas you may not agree with? Is that the way we want discussions to work? These are serious questions that I, personally, have about this issue. Am I considered a "troll" for having these questions?
- topynate 12y ago
  His former job is most accurately described as "propagandist". The word "troll" is probably unsalvageable, one more victim of semantic creep.
- osipov 12y ago
  The problem you are describing is due to the fact that the word "troll" is a semantic stop sign http://lesswrong.com/lw/it/semantic_stopsigns/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/it/semantic_stopsigns/ People judge someone as a troll and immediately stop thinking about the subject matter, e.g. "Russia invaded Ukraine" is that a fact or an opinion?
  - krapp 12y ago
    I believe this is one of the main reason people try to call out the presence of trolls (particularly as government or corporate shills) on forums, especially if they do it preemptively. If you believe that an opposing point of view is objectively wrong and mostly upheld by propagandists, you want to prevent people from actually considering "the lie" for their own safety. Of course, doing this usually leads to an argument and tea-leaf reading session that creates a bigger distraction than the trolls (whether they exist or not) probably could have managed.
- 12y ago
ibi7 12y ago
Guyz english is too good to be from that region. Probably a script by the Americans and their allies.
ibi7 12y ago
The guy's english is too good to be from that region. Probably a script by the Americans and their allies.
- ak1394 12y ago
  The original story in Russian, here http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/26913247.html http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/26913247.html This is a translation.
- PerfectDlite 12y ago
  He's using English, that's enough to brand him as American spy, right, comrade? Damn, it's like stalinist times all over again...
oskarth 12y ago
Set up a straw man, then knock it down with graphics (pathos, "I've seen it") and links (logos, "it's researched, and true"). Oh and ethos too, because it's a response to a villain with "arguments", rather than being an unprovoked attack. Simple and beautiful. Just don't think it's only happening in Russia.
kazinator 12y ago
The USSR/CCCP lives on.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
Procedural 12y ago
As a Russian, yep, I saw these people online, they're easy identifiable, though... Also, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are the motherlands for hackers of all sorts, we have bots who post pro-Kremlin comments on social networks too. My favorite example is this one: http://apikabu.ru/img_n/2012-02_4/5c7.jpg http://apikabu.ru/img_n/2012-02_4/5c7.jpg The description says "DO NOT POST COMMENTS, who post a comment will be banned", and underneath it different bot accounts post messages about how bad it is to join protests and American government controls the opposition, nonsense like that. Don't worry about hacker news or other sites like this one — the government thinks people don't know English to be on these sites. Partially it's true, though, most people still are unaware of real situation because they don't have internet connection (they get news from television, as here it's called "ZomboTV" ("Зомбоящик"), you guys have it too, imagine if all the channels were like CNN) and most of their time they spend on trying to survive in this economic situation (google "dollar to ruble"), they have no time to protest or find true information about their government and "president" (a mafioso Putin, google "dacha consumer cooperative Ozero")
- sbt 12y ago
  I can tell you that the comment section on FT.com is positively trolled by at least a few accounts. They seem to have allocated some of the smarter ones to the site, but they are easily identified because.. * They sometimes drop determiners in English. (A pattern I've noticed). * They post a lot of comments. * They fill up the comment section early in the morning (Europe) and then nothing. * Rampant quoting (especially zero hedge), like someone spent their whole day researching the issue. * Assumptions in arguments are official Russian talking points. Now, how do I distinguish these guys from just gold buying Max Keyser followers? Mainly the time that seems to have gone into it. If I were to post as prolifically I would need to dedicate at least several hours to this every day.
  - Procedural 12y ago
    Huh. So the situation is worse than I expected. The sites like the one you mentioned should close their comment section when it's morning in Europe and open it at night when their work day is over. I hope people won't judge other Russians just because of these trolls...
sbt 12y ago
For those who are using the argument that other countries do it too: No. Many US news outlets (Fox News, Newsweek, Yahoo news, etc.) often post overtly biased stories in favor of US interests. But they do it not because they are instructed, but because it makes many Americans feel good. Although it's not pretty, they do it for business reasons. You need only hang out a while on /r/worldnews before you realize that completely valid pro-Russian arguments are down voted for no reason, while 'Fuck Russia' posts are up voted. The same with stories. But this is folly, not malice. Russian news is of an entirely different nature. They were famous for industrious propaganda during the cold war. They are now at it again in full force. The troll factories are just one facet of it, but it encompasses nearly all of Russian media.
- jklinger410 12y ago
  >For those who are using the argument that other countries do it too: No. >...valid pro-Russian arguments are down voted for no reason, while 'Fuck Russia' posts are up voted. The same with stories. But this is folly, not malice. You can say this all you want but it's merely conjecture. You can see the exact same trends you'll find with these Russian "trolls" (shills is a better word) on almost every topic on the internet. It is not a stretch to believe that the NSA and other organizations, private and public, are waging a public/private war of popular opinion all over the internet and media. Remember when the NSA and DOD lied to American congress about collecting American's cell phone data and stuff? If they're willing to BLATANTLY lie to congress then what's a couple million of their hugely bloated budgets to pay an office of trolls to throw smoke screens over any topic they please? And if you're inferring that private corporations don't offer this service...well...if that's true, I just found my next business.
usaphp 12y ago
This seems fishy about this article: He is making 45,000 rubles ($700) for a 12 hours shift in Saint Petersburg. With his English knowledge skills alone he can easily make double that money just by working as a translator in a regular 8 hour job.
- _dark_matter_ 12y ago
  Did you read the article? He got the job purely to have the job, not for the monetary compensation. He described it as "adventurism".
  - usaphp 12y ago
    Yeah sure, working two month in 12 hours shifts just for adventurism. Either he is a spy or this story is a complete joke
    - Squarel 12y ago
      Its 2 on, 2 off. 2 months in 12h shifts working 4 days a week is not that bad.
      - usaphp 12y ago
        45,000 per month in Saint Petersburg is a low paying job salary, this job however requires basic computer knowledge and from what I understand english knowledge as well to post comments on western websites.
        burger_moon 12y ago
        No, 45k ruble is for non-English speaking people to post on Russian municipality websites.
        usaphp 12y ago
        its still an underpaid position for somebody who knows basic computers in Saint Petersburg
takeyears 12y ago
I have been following politics since "Arab Spring" and I have always experienced the online propaganda. Pro-Putin propagandist: 1. Sides with Iran/Assad 2. Bash U.S/NATO 3. Claim USG is supporting terrorists and CIA is training them. 4. Claim "Arab Spring" is a conspiracy to destabilize the Middle East. 5. Claim 9/11 was an inside job. 6. Everything bad happens is a conspiracy by USG to attack the Democratic Putin. (lol) If you want a look, check the comments of Reddit or Youtube topics about Ukrine, Syria, Russian/Middle East related, etc...
pnathan 12y ago
This particular operation is relatively crude. However, consider what it would take to build a better operation. I always think about this when I am reading Wikipedia on any contested subject where an organization with a PR arm is in play. There was a report of a similar operation in the US a few years ago (I lost the link, can't find it, no PDF), where this kind of thing was done as a paid service for political groups within the US. The author of that article had worked there as part of some "pro-Isreal" group. It was better than this Russian op - there was a relatively deeper briefing of the material at hand.
trhway 12y ago
they seemed to have increased salaries during last year - i guess in response to falling ruble - various Russian sources were putting it at ~30K a year ago :) Not surprising that the major amount of propaganda is directed onto domestic sites. And, yes, clear visible double standards applied by the major powers in the world do make that propaganda work much more successful.
Torgo 12y ago
Funnily enough, I saw many comment trolls defending Toyota during the "rapid acceleration" fiasco. I believe this is a very commonplace thing for both governments and businesses with image problems.
PhantomGremlin 12y ago
Things are a lot more sophisticated nowadays. Back in ancient times, around the beginnings of Eternal September, we had Serdar Argic. He used to piss off half of Usenet with his repetitive denials of the Armenian Genocide.[1] We also had Canter and Siegel (who I affectionately referred to as Cancer and Slime). They were the first massive commercial Usenet spammers.[2] Ahh, good times. Such humble beginnings for the Information Superhighway. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Argic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Argic [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Canter_and_Martha_Siegel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Canter_and_Martha_Sieg...

268 points by sbt 12y ago

I think the Chinese government used to do this with The Economist's forums. I think they've stopped, for some reason. I don't really read the comments there much, though; it's all garbage.

cgh 12y ago
The 50 Cent Army is still at it. I think newspapers have become a lot better about filtering them out. The Globe and Mail (Canada) was absolutely overrun for a while and they still pop up now and again.
- MollyR 12y ago
  Could it be the "50 Cent Army" just got better ? They learned from their mistakes, and are becoming more subversive ?
Paradigma11 12y ago
I noticed this also. A shame really since they were so much better than their russian counterparts. Those guys were REALLY well briefed and had lots of different strings of argument ready.

dreamweapon 12y ago

Here's a link to the non-mobile version: http://www.rferl.org/content/how-to-guide-russian-trolling-trolls/26919999.html http://www.rferl.org/content/how-to-guide-russian-trolling-t...

FreakyT 12y ago

I find it interesting that they use a "villain" troll as a virtual strawman to knock down -- I feel like that adds a layer of subtlety that wouldn't really exist with solely the pro-Russia content.

JonnieCache 12y ago
The good guys are known to use much more in-depth techniques than that, see: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipula... especially: https://prod01-cdn02.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/2014/02/deception_p12.png https://prod01-cdn02.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/20... Based on the state of that powerpoint slide they're probably achieving fuck-all in practice.

tobiasu 12y ago

RFERL. Enough said.

JonnieCache 12y ago
lol. Nice catch. RFE/RL is supervised by the Broadcasting Board of Governors, an agency overseeing all U.S. federal government international broadcasting services. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty And so we enter the wilderness of mirrors... (FWIW the radio in my kitchen is set to the BBC world service, which is funded exclusively by the foreign office...)
- dmschulman 12y ago
  You have to separate the medium and the message. Does the RFE/RL have self-interest in disclosing a story that is critical of Russia? Probably. Are the facts of the story in dispute because Radio Free Europe happened to publish the interview? This I'm not so sure of. Also writing a comment like this in the context of the linked article fills me with a sense of dread. Am I merely emulating the villain troll perspective by refuting your claim and (seemingly) suiting my biases? Will it be possible to have discussions in the future without a subtext of having some covert motive?
  - JonnieCache 12y ago
    How do you think I feel? The first thing I did in this thread was link to an image! (For the record, I agree with your view. If you want to feel even more confused about the issue, check out this video concerning Vladislav Surkov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcy8uLjRHPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcy8uLjRHPM) We should start a pool on who and what is being funded by the russian govt. UKIP 10/1 Pussy Riot 8/1 Adam Curtis 9/2 Uber 12/1 any takers?
    - dmschulman 12y ago
      Yeah that segment is incredibly insightful. Tactics of deliberate misinformation and confusion reek of 1950s/1960s Cold War sentiment (on both sides).

ShannonSofield 12y ago

Truly fascinating. They should make these services for hire, there are some brands that would kill for this kind of content farm.

jklinger410 12y ago
They do.
emodendroket 12y ago
Ah yes, until now no one has had the idea to abuse comment forms and Web forums to promote products and services. You could become rich with this unique idea.

fierycatnet 12y ago

Ukrainian situation is a complex one and brings out the worst in people, at least in post-Soviet countries. It's not uncommon for people to have different view on this issue. I know families who fight over it, people breaking up over it, it's pretty emotional subject. So with this in mind, I don't think there is some sort of conspiratorial force at work to post pro-Kremlin position on online. I don't doubt that there are paid people who spam forums but just because someone is voicing their opinion in favor of Russian official stance it doesn't mean automatic paid shill. I've been following this conflict since 2013 and I have to say that all involved sides are offenders of "their" version of events in mass media.

dmschulman 12y ago
I think the cause for skepticism in this circumstance was the heavy handed pro-Russian voice that seemed to dominate the conversation online over the situation in Ukraine. That and the mountain of evidence which demonstrates how Russia makes a concerted effort to command the media narrative of a story through online comments.
- geoka9 12y ago
  Just the other day Russia announced additional cuts in their annual budget. Almost every expenditure was cut across the board, except for the military and propaganda (e.g. Russia Today received a 5 bln increase).
frandroid 12y ago
The fact that there are two sides debating the story doesn't invalidate the idea that Russian would hire pro trolls.
- ommunist 12y ago
  this reminds me C&C Red Alert game. But in the end hypnotizing Yuri fails in front of the good old American nuke. Russians may employ a thousand of pro-trolls. But they cannot filter (and possibly change) global traffic realtime like NSA does.

MrClean 12y ago

Patiently waiting for villain troll, link troll and picture troll to work this thread.

smtddr 12y ago
That part freaked me out because that was one of the ways I thought I could tell authentic from propaganda. I thought people in power didn't know how to blend in naturally to forums and their comments always stood out, but it looks like they do get it. Now I'm worried that my propaganda/astroturfing indicators don't work as well as I thought they did.
- Practicality 12y ago
  The article covers it quite well. The trolls generally don't really know what they're talking about and often don't make sense. So if you ignore the nonsensical people you will ignore the trolls too. It's a pretty good rule to follow anyway.
  - colin_jack 12y ago
    At least in Guardian comments they make no sense, are intensely rude, and tend not to reply to comments. As you say it makes them very easy to spot.
- stingraycharles 12y ago
  From what I understand from the article, I think you are overestimating the quality of the arguments they bring forward.
- MollyR 12y ago
  You probably need constant vigilance to be aware how propaganda is being spread. Everyone is probably constantly trying new ways to spread it. Truth seems to be under attack in every direction.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

tigrella 12y ago

It's all about propaganda. Looks like not much has changed in Russian government ideology over the last 25 years.

denom 12y ago
Doesn't every well financed institution do similar things? I thought that was the substance of public relations: getting your side of the story out there. It even happens on a small scale e.g. Yelp reviews.
- MollyR 12y ago
  Really even yelp reviews? How much vigilance does one need to not be coopted by propaganda . . .
- comex 12y ago
  No, every well financed institution does not hire people to role play hundreds of sockpuppets to create a false impression of support for its message.
  - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
    Actually the US has an entire (metaphorical) army of think tanks and other propaganda outlets which do exactly that. The sockpuppets tend to be more influential than drive-by commenters though. Some of them actually pretend to be respectable journalists and opinion-formers. The Church Committee in the 1970s blew the lid on this. Operation Mockingbird is a famous historical example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird The National Endowment for Democracy is more recent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democrac... Given history, it would take someone with more faith in open government than I have to believe there are no equivalent online operations today.
- sorincos 12y ago
  It's one thing getting your side of the story, and another one blatantly overflooding the forums with your side of the story. In electoral campaigns there are rules against such practices, but bought reviews or fake followers are issues way more difficult to address. And as somebody else put it, financial institutions seldom try to justify with it an invasion of other countries.

schandur 12y ago

How is this different from Israel or China? Genuine question.

ikeboy 12y ago
If you have interviews with people who used to work for either of those doing the same thing, I'd love to see them.
- cgh 12y ago
  http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/10/china%E2%80%99s-paid-trolls-meet-50-cent-party http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/10/china%... An interview with a member of China's 50 Cent Party.
  - ikeboy 12y ago
    That's interesting. Do you have anything from Israel?
    - cgh 12y ago
      No.
dmschulman 12y ago
There is no difference procedure-wise. In execution however, Israel and China aren't invading foreign nations and using the online peanut gallery to try and sway public opinion on the matter. Maybe you could make a case for Palestine or the Senkaku Islands dispute but I don't think those examples would hold muster for a multitude of reasons.
- frandroid 12y ago
  Well, Palestine is already invaded and occupied, I guess that's different...
- aikah 12y ago

osipov 12y ago

It is fascinating that this article comes out in context of Broadcast Board of Governors announcing that US is losing the information war with Russia. Surprisingly it does not occur to the media that telling the truth is the best antidote to Russian propaganda. Instead, the government is complaining that "broadcasters are not always in tune with U.S. foreign policy objectives." Frankly, since I'm paying my taxes to US government, I want free and independent journalism, not the one that is driven by advertisers, corporate sponsors, or US foreign objectives. We used to have that before 1990s when just 6 major media conglomerates ate up 90% of the media companies. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/25/usa-broadcasting-idUSL2N0WP23620150325 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/25/usa-broadcasting-i...

wtbob 12y ago
> It is fascinating that this article comes out in context of Broadcast Board of Governors announcing that US is losing the information war with Russia. Surprisingly it does not occur to the media that telling the truth is the best antidote to Russian propaganda. Is it though? I know that in a business context I've often been told that I have an 'incredible ability to see both sides of a question'; that's actually a problem, because at some point one has to decide for one side or another on a particular question. Likewise, in real life there often aren't cut-and-dried issues: rather, there are two (or more!) sides, each with valid perspectives, valid grudges, and they can't all win; indeed, in some cases compromise is simply impossible. And yet people must decide between them. Indeed, the more one learns the truth about an historical conflict, the less obvious is the Right Thing to do in that situation. But what great masses of people need is a clear, obvious Right Thing. You don't win WWII by emphasising that the post-WWI plebiscites were fixed against Germany, or that Japan had some valid grievances against the U.S.
- osipov 12y ago
  wow your reply is as off topic as it gets...care to connect the dots?
  - xtrumanx 12y ago

ommunist 12y ago

The other side does the same. Here is the story. I have a client - small market research company, covering Russia. I made bilingual website for them. When Ukrainian conflict started, their Russian contact form was heavily abused by some pro-Ukrainian trolls, posting physical threats to company employees (UK-based, by the way). I coded check against vocabulary, but it appeared, trolls were restlessly trying to bypass my hidden rules for business conversation. It took a week of polishing vocabulary rules. And I added math captcha. In the end I won. They even wrote me a give up letter. Their IPs were mostly Polish and French. UPD: The hosting was US-based. So they were deliberately looking for Russian forms.

ak1394 12y ago
It's not quite the same though? I doubt there is a facility somewhere in Ukraine where people are getting paid to peddle government propaganda on the Internet.
- c_los 12y ago
  That's it guys, case solved. This guy doubts it. :P
  - ak1394 12y ago
    What's your point?
    - knivets 12y ago
      That you are the villain type (from the article)
- M8 12y ago
  http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm "Victoria Nuland Admits: US Has Invested $5 Billion In The Development of Ukrainian, 'Democratic Institutions'".

sorincos 12y ago

The Romanian independent press publishes from time to time inquiries (sometimes undercover) about similar paid structures used by local parties (PDL, PSD...) during electoral campaigns and not only. First time I've read how they are organized and how much they get paid was like in 2009 (here the Google Translate version https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.romanialibera.ro%2Fspecial%2Finvestigatii%2Fautodenunt--doua-saptamani-i-am-haituit-pe-internet-pe-adversarii-lui-crin-antonescu-170269&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...), but I'm sure the technique is in place since long.

aulona 12y ago

Could this be a good marketing tactic to acquire users for consumer facing products?

ommunist 12y ago
Absolutely. Compare this to effects of positive or negative reviews on Amazon. I say - hire Russian troll if you are on the mass-market with review-based reputation on product descriptions. Imagine you have +100 positive reviews overnight. For a hundred bucks its a bargain!

dismal2 12y ago

I'll wait for RT to write a retort and just ignore both of these government mouth pieces.

tech2000 12y ago

I wonder if fox news has the same setup?

probably_wrong 12y ago

I'm fairly sure someone smarter and with more time than me could trace an interesting parallel between East and West policies when it comes to the internet, comparing the leaks about GCHQ[1] and this post. Perhaps an "infinite monkeys" vs "carefully targeted" approach? Also, I may or may not be an employee who was told to come and disrupt the discussion here. So there's that too. [1] https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipula...

xnull2guest 12y ago
Here's a start for the US. Incomplete list of domestic stuff: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856218 like "public opinion campaigns": http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/us/20generals.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/us/20generals.html?pagewan... Incomplete list of international stuff: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8709976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8709976 like using social media to kindle revolutions: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/usaid-effort-to-undermine-cuban-government-with-fake-twitter-another-anti-castro-failure/2014/04/03/c0142cc0-bb75-11e3-9a05-c739f29ccb08_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/usaid-effort-t... Some things almost sound like science fiction, like the DoD program to predict successful overseas propaganda by observing brain scans of test subjects: http://minerva.dtic.mil/doc/samplewp-Lieberman.pdf http://minerva.dtic.mil/doc/samplewp-Lieberman.pdf

breitling 12y ago

It would be foolish to think our countries don't do this. The U.S., Canada, Israel, they all have propaganda campaigns of their own.

kazinator 12y ago
Yeah, just like we also jail girl punk band members if they express something against the government or religion.
- lmm 12y ago
  When they also vandalize a church? Um yes. Yes we do.
  - Squarel 12y ago
    They did not vandalize a church. They stood on the altar. Afaik, they caused no physical damage to the church, nor defaced anything. I don't think people get multi-year sentences for saying bad words in a church ;)
  - wavefunction 12y ago
    That's a straw man argument though, as Pussy Riot didn't vandalize any church unless there's a new event I don't know about.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - kazinator 12y ago
    Yes they vandalized a church! Just like Russians or their assisted rebels didn't shoot down that passenger plane. It's all made clear in the Russian press, blogs and forum postings!
ccvannorman 12y ago
NO............! Not US! /s

mehhhhhhh 12y ago

If it is written, people believe it. I think a general education in reasoning, criticism and logic, that would happen along with the typical primary/secondary courses( math, english ) would help not just in this case, but also in many other areas.

m_mueller 12y ago

This is eerily close to what two of the main characters in Ender's Game are doing in order to change events. Internet, the blogosphere, comments, trolls, it was all predicted with quite a bit of detail in that book from 1985.

siegecraft 12y ago
If I recall, that was a hilarious optimistic view of things, where there was high level/scholarly debate online and people were persuaded by great rhetoric.. quite a departure from the race to the bottom, cesspool of online commentary as it exists today.
- m_mueller 12y ago
  I agree. Also the impact today doesn't turn out to be that big as described in the book (although that might be because we haven't yet had someone like the Wiggins family?). But still, the mechanism itself was all there.
watmough 12y ago
And satirized by XKCD: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/locke_and_demosthenes.png http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/locke_and_demosthenes.png

jklinger410 12y ago

I saw this all over reddit when that airplane was shot down over Ukraine. Vote brigading and shill accounts corrupted reddit long ago. These tactics have probably been in use since before reddit even existed. The internet is essentially a big propaganda machine and you can't till what is what unless you are keen and aware.

jrockway 12y ago
> Vote brigading and shill accounts corrupted reddit long ago. Too many people in one subreddit killed reddit. Go to the outskirts. It's fine.
borgia 12y ago
>The internet is essentially a big propaganda machine and you can't till what is what unless you are keen and aware. Indeed. Governments including those in the Five Eyes, Russia, China, Israel and more have been shown to have massive operations - JTRIG for one - that seek to disrupt and manipulate online discourse, create and spread false information, etc. PR firms run rampant across social media sites, forums, etc. and disrupt and manipulate online discourse and the flow of information. Everything from the largest companies in the world to small local restaurants engage in manipulating how their company and its actions are perceived. News entities, small and large, serve their corporate interests and promote whatever they want promoted, or rally against whatever they want rallied against. And then people, with their inherent biases, buying into propaganda, toeing the party line, etc. do their own part in the same, whether it's in spreading purposely created disinformation that they believe to be true, trying to silence those that disagree with them and more. One of the most toxic things I've seen is the rise in very rapidly dismissing a statement that one disagrees with as being that of "trolling" or "shilling" in order to shut down the discussion. With regards to Reddit, the fact that moderator accounts, accounts with large numbers of upvotes, etc. can be readily bought online says more than needs to be said about the bizarre behaviour on display on that site every day. Wikipedia has been utterly bastardized. And so it goes on. It's a shame to see a tool that was created for sharing information being so heavily corrupted. Widespread propaganda from all sides, mass surveillance, the active actions of intelligence agencies such as the recent CIA attempt to inspire an uprising in Cuba, etc. It has become very hard to know what to trust online now. It's sad, but not unexpected, and one can only wonder what the future holds for it.

cubano 12y ago

Sure...propaganda generated for the direct purpose of trying to influence the masses. It has been around forever and is used by everyone from governments to multinationals to mom-and-pops up the road. However, my question is this...is a "troll" just defined as someone who disagrees with you? For example, I am sure, as unpleasant as it may seem, that there are plenty of people who sincerely think it's good that Russia invaded Ukraine...if these people voice their support, are they "trolling"? How are you supposed to tell the difference? Is calling someone a "troll" just a way to try to quickly marginalize any POV they may be trying to defend or promote? And if so, isn't it just a shortcut to censorship of any ideas you may not agree with? Is that the way we want discussions to work? These are serious questions that I, personally, have about this issue. Am I considered a "troll" for having these questions?

topynate 12y ago
His former job is most accurately described as "propagandist". The word "troll" is probably unsalvageable, one more victim of semantic creep.
osipov 12y ago
The problem you are describing is due to the fact that the word "troll" is a semantic stop sign http://lesswrong.com/lw/it/semantic_stopsigns/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/it/semantic_stopsigns/ People judge someone as a troll and immediately stop thinking about the subject matter, e.g. "Russia invaded Ukraine" is that a fact or an opinion?
- krapp 12y ago
  I believe this is one of the main reason people try to call out the presence of trolls (particularly as government or corporate shills) on forums, especially if they do it preemptively. If you believe that an opposing point of view is objectively wrong and mostly upheld by propagandists, you want to prevent people from actually considering "the lie" for their own safety. Of course, doing this usually leads to an argument and tea-leaf reading session that creates a bigger distraction than the trolls (whether they exist or not) probably could have managed.
12y ago

ibi7 12y ago

Guyz english is too good to be from that region. Probably a script by the Americans and their allies.

ibi7 12y ago

The guy's english is too good to be from that region. Probably a script by the Americans and their allies.

ak1394 12y ago
The original story in Russian, here http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/26913247.html http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/26913247.html This is a translation.
PerfectDlite 12y ago
He's using English, that's enough to brand him as American spy, right, comrade? Damn, it's like stalinist times all over again...

oskarth 12y ago

Set up a straw man, then knock it down with graphics (pathos, "I've seen it") and links (logos, "it's researched, and true"). Oh and ethos too, because it's a response to a villain with "arguments", rather than being an unprovoked attack. Simple and beautiful. Just don't think it's only happening in Russia.

kazinator 12y ago

The USSR/CCCP lives on.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

Procedural 12y ago

As a Russian, yep, I saw these people online, they're easy identifiable, though... Also, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are the motherlands for hackers of all sorts, we have bots who post pro-Kremlin comments on social networks too. My favorite example is this one: http://apikabu.ru/img_n/2012-02_4/5c7.jpg http://apikabu.ru/img_n/2012-02_4/5c7.jpg The description says "DO NOT POST COMMENTS, who post a comment will be banned", and underneath it different bot accounts post messages about how bad it is to join protests and American government controls the opposition, nonsense like that. Don't worry about hacker news or other sites like this one — the government thinks people don't know English to be on these sites. Partially it's true, though, most people still are unaware of real situation because they don't have internet connection (they get news from television, as here it's called "ZomboTV" ("Зомбоящик"), you guys have it too, imagine if all the channels were like CNN) and most of their time they spend on trying to survive in this economic situation (google "dollar to ruble"), they have no time to protest or find true information about their government and "president" (a mafioso Putin, google "dacha consumer cooperative Ozero")

sbt 12y ago
I can tell you that the comment section on FT.com is positively trolled by at least a few accounts. They seem to have allocated some of the smarter ones to the site, but they are easily identified because.. * They sometimes drop determiners in English. (A pattern I've noticed). * They post a lot of comments. * They fill up the comment section early in the morning (Europe) and then nothing. * Rampant quoting (especially zero hedge), like someone spent their whole day researching the issue. * Assumptions in arguments are official Russian talking points. Now, how do I distinguish these guys from just gold buying Max Keyser followers? Mainly the time that seems to have gone into it. If I were to post as prolifically I would need to dedicate at least several hours to this every day.
- Procedural 12y ago
  Huh. So the situation is worse than I expected. The sites like the one you mentioned should close their comment section when it's morning in Europe and open it at night when their work day is over. I hope people won't judge other Russians just because of these trolls...

sbt 12y ago

For those who are using the argument that other countries do it too: No. Many US news outlets (Fox News, Newsweek, Yahoo news, etc.) often post overtly biased stories in favor of US interests. But they do it not because they are instructed, but because it makes many Americans feel good. Although it's not pretty, they do it for business reasons. You need only hang out a while on /r/worldnews before you realize that completely valid pro-Russian arguments are down voted for no reason, while 'Fuck Russia' posts are up voted. The same with stories. But this is folly, not malice. Russian news is of an entirely different nature. They were famous for industrious propaganda during the cold war. They are now at it again in full force. The troll factories are just one facet of it, but it encompasses nearly all of Russian media.

jklinger410 12y ago
>For those who are using the argument that other countries do it too: No. >...valid pro-Russian arguments are down voted for no reason, while 'Fuck Russia' posts are up voted. The same with stories. But this is folly, not malice. You can say this all you want but it's merely conjecture. You can see the exact same trends you'll find with these Russian "trolls" (shills is a better word) on almost every topic on the internet. It is not a stretch to believe that the NSA and other organizations, private and public, are waging a public/private war of popular opinion all over the internet and media. Remember when the NSA and DOD lied to American congress about collecting American's cell phone data and stuff? If they're willing to BLATANTLY lie to congress then what's a couple million of their hugely bloated budgets to pay an office of trolls to throw smoke screens over any topic they please? And if you're inferring that private corporations don't offer this service...well...if that's true, I just found my next business.

usaphp 12y ago

This seems fishy about this article: He is making 45,000 rubles ($700) for a 12 hours shift in Saint Petersburg. With his English knowledge skills alone he can easily make double that money just by working as a translator in a regular 8 hour job.

_dark_matter_ 12y ago
Did you read the article? He got the job purely to have the job, not for the monetary compensation. He described it as "adventurism".
- usaphp 12y ago
  Yeah sure, working two month in 12 hours shifts just for adventurism. Either he is a spy or this story is a complete joke
  - Squarel 12y ago
    Its 2 on, 2 off. 2 months in 12h shifts working 4 days a week is not that bad.
    - usaphp 12y ago
      45,000 per month in Saint Petersburg is a low paying job salary, this job however requires basic computer knowledge and from what I understand english knowledge as well to post comments on western websites.
      - burger_moon 12y ago
        No, 45k ruble is for non-English speaking people to post on Russian municipality websites.
        usaphp 12y ago
        its still an underpaid position for somebody who knows basic computers in Saint Petersburg

takeyears 12y ago

I have been following politics since "Arab Spring" and I have always experienced the online propaganda. Pro-Putin propagandist: 1. Sides with Iran/Assad 2. Bash U.S/NATO 3. Claim USG is supporting terrorists and CIA is training them. 4. Claim "Arab Spring" is a conspiracy to destabilize the Middle East. 5. Claim 9/11 was an inside job. 6. Everything bad happens is a conspiracy by USG to attack the Democratic Putin. (lol) If you want a look, check the comments of Reddit or Youtube topics about Ukrine, Syria, Russian/Middle East related, etc...

pnathan 12y ago

This particular operation is relatively crude. However, consider what it would take to build a better operation. I always think about this when I am reading Wikipedia on any contested subject where an organization with a PR arm is in play. There was a report of a similar operation in the US a few years ago (I lost the link, can't find it, no PDF), where this kind of thing was done as a paid service for political groups within the US. The author of that article had worked there as part of some "pro-Isreal" group. It was better than this Russian op - there was a relatively deeper briefing of the material at hand.

trhway 12y ago

they seemed to have increased salaries during last year - i guess in response to falling ruble - various Russian sources were putting it at ~30K a year ago :) Not surprising that the major amount of propaganda is directed onto domestic sites. And, yes, clear visible double standards applied by the major powers in the world do make that propaganda work much more successful.

Torgo 12y ago

Funnily enough, I saw many comment trolls defending Toyota during the "rapid acceleration" fiasco. I believe this is a very commonplace thing for both governments and businesses with image problems.

PhantomGremlin 12y ago

Things are a lot more sophisticated nowadays. Back in ancient times, around the beginnings of Eternal September, we had Serdar Argic. He used to piss off half of Usenet with his repetitive denials of the Armenian Genocide.[1] We also had Canter and Siegel (who I affectionately referred to as Cancer and Slime). They were the first massive commercial Usenet spammers.[2] Ahh, good times. Such humble beginnings for the Information Superhighway. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Argic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Argic [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Canter_and_Martha_Siegel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Canter_and_Martha_Sieg...