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Fake failures aside, I didn't really appreciate the article. Do you know what you get without failure culture? Italy. In my home country, if you fuck up it's o

Fake failures aside, I didn't really appreciate the article. Do you know what you get without failure culture? Italy. In my home country, if you fuck up it's over. People will laugh at your totally unrealistic attempt to strive for more. Everyone must fall to the lowest denominator. Italians don't see failure as a short-term result, but as a lesson about life itself.

forgottenpass 12y ago
Do you know what you get without failure culture? Italy. So it's one or the other then? No spectrum in between, just pick one? Interesting to know.
- Red_Tarsius 12y ago
  I genuinely don't know how to respond to your comment. It's obvious that the real world is not made of mutually exclusive scenarios.
  - forgottenpass 12y ago
    Unless you define everywhere on the spectrum of cultural attitudes towards failure as either "failure culture" or "Italy-like", you're beginning to understand my frustration with your first post.
    - patorjk 12y ago
      I think they're just making a point about what the absence of any kind of acceptance of failure is like. It's not that there's a spectrum between "failure culture" and "Italy-like", it's that "failure culture" itself is the spectrum, and Italy-like is the point at the very end. It's what happens people don't respect failure.
      - forgottenpass 12y ago
        OK, I think I get it. But that's what I've been taking issue with all along. There is little substance is running to the polar opposite as the only alternative. And the system of categorization seems like tee-ing up for just-so stories about the benefits of "failure culture" and "acceptance of failure."
bitcrusher 12y ago
It's not just Italy. Places outside of Silicon Valley, within the USA have the same outlook. Personally, I think this 'failure as a badge of wisdom' is one of the 'secret' ingredients for the 'Silicon Valley' recipe.
- Red_Tarsius 12y ago
  I think this attitude is part of what Thiel calls indefinite pessimism.
  - harpastum 12y ago
    For anyone else unfamiliar with the term, I just found this blog post that explains Zak Slayback's understanding of Thiel's indefinite pessimism: http://zakslayback.com/2014/10/07/pessimism-optimism-definite-indefinite-societies-according-to-peter-thiel/ http://zakslayback.com/2014/10/07/pessimism-optimism-definit... It's a pretty good read. The relevant section regarding Italy: "Thiel’s identification of the indefinite pessimists: modern-day Europeans. 'The world is going to hell in a hand basket, so we might as well as drink and be merry,'"
- forgottenpass 12y ago
  Places outside of Silicon Valley, within the USA have the same outlook. Everywhere has people who have go-nowhere attitudes, but it all depends on the type of people you know, it's not universal. The thing unique to the Valley is that it has people flush with capital that encourage large, repeated, expensive risk taking in tech products with low expectations of success. And, spoiler warning, there is nothing secret about it.
wehadfun 12y ago
Feel like in this article Sanflippo said something similar about the culture https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8782667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8782667
melvinmt 12y ago
I'd say not only Italy, but Europe in general (I'm from the Netherlands and it has the same poisonous culture).
aswanson 12y ago
Not just Italy. That's pretty much the East Coast of the U.S. as well. Engineers looked at me like I wanted to start a cocaine trafficking network when I suggested starting a company back in school. The east coast is like Italy with worse weather.
deveac 12y ago
My sentiments as well. When you're confronted with the "Fail Fast" trope as often folks on here are, it gets predictable to the point where it can be mocked. That's cool. #fumblebrag is actually a pretty hilarious term. But at the end of the day, as long as we're not too cynical, I believe that a culture that nurtures taking chances to the point where Fumblebrag exists is, on the balance, much better than the alternative.
droque 12y ago
It's similar in Mexico. It’s not a coincidence that FuckUp Nights started there. It’s a very traditionalist and failure averse country, so that “making it” means being a manager in a good position in an old monopoly, even in entrepreneurial circles (even then, is limited to family-sized stable business). (It also helps that the upper-middle class in Mexico imitates american ways of life). So it’s an antidote for that location.

forgottenpass 12y ago

Do you know what you get without failure culture? Italy. So it's one or the other then? No spectrum in between, just pick one? Interesting to know.

Red_Tarsius 12y ago
I genuinely don't know how to respond to your comment. It's obvious that the real world is not made of mutually exclusive scenarios.
- forgottenpass 12y ago
  Unless you define everywhere on the spectrum of cultural attitudes towards failure as either "failure culture" or "Italy-like", you're beginning to understand my frustration with your first post.
  - patorjk 12y ago
    I think they're just making a point about what the absence of any kind of acceptance of failure is like. It's not that there's a spectrum between "failure culture" and "Italy-like", it's that "failure culture" itself is the spectrum, and Italy-like is the point at the very end. It's what happens people don't respect failure.
    - forgottenpass 12y ago
      OK, I think I get it. But that's what I've been taking issue with all along. There is little substance is running to the polar opposite as the only alternative. And the system of categorization seems like tee-ing up for just-so stories about the benefits of "failure culture" and "acceptance of failure."

bitcrusher 12y ago

It's not just Italy. Places outside of Silicon Valley, within the USA have the same outlook. Personally, I think this 'failure as a badge of wisdom' is one of the 'secret' ingredients for the 'Silicon Valley' recipe.

Red_Tarsius 12y ago
I think this attitude is part of what Thiel calls indefinite pessimism.
- harpastum 12y ago
  For anyone else unfamiliar with the term, I just found this blog post that explains Zak Slayback's understanding of Thiel's indefinite pessimism: http://zakslayback.com/2014/10/07/pessimism-optimism-definite-indefinite-societies-according-to-peter-thiel/ http://zakslayback.com/2014/10/07/pessimism-optimism-definit... It's a pretty good read. The relevant section regarding Italy: "Thiel’s identification of the indefinite pessimists: modern-day Europeans. 'The world is going to hell in a hand basket, so we might as well as drink and be merry,'"
forgottenpass 12y ago
Places outside of Silicon Valley, within the USA have the same outlook. Everywhere has people who have go-nowhere attitudes, but it all depends on the type of people you know, it's not universal. The thing unique to the Valley is that it has people flush with capital that encourage large, repeated, expensive risk taking in tech products with low expectations of success. And, spoiler warning, there is nothing secret about it.

wehadfun 12y ago

Feel like in this article Sanflippo said something similar about the culture https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8782667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8782667

melvinmt 12y ago

I'd say not only Italy, but Europe in general (I'm from the Netherlands and it has the same poisonous culture).

aswanson 12y ago

Not just Italy. That's pretty much the East Coast of the U.S. as well. Engineers looked at me like I wanted to start a cocaine trafficking network when I suggested starting a company back in school. The east coast is like Italy with worse weather.

deveac 12y ago

My sentiments as well. When you're confronted with the "Fail Fast" trope as often folks on here are, it gets predictable to the point where it can be mocked. That's cool. #fumblebrag is actually a pretty hilarious term. But at the end of the day, as long as we're not too cynical, I believe that a culture that nurtures taking chances to the point where Fumblebrag exists is, on the balance, much better than the alternative.

droque 12y ago

It's similar in Mexico. It’s not a coincidence that FuckUp Nights started there. It’s a very traditionalist and failure averse country, so that “making it” means being a manager in a good position in an old monopoly, even in entrepreneurial circles (even then, is limited to family-sized stable business). (It also helps that the upper-middle class in Mexico imitates american ways of life). So it’s an antidote for that location.