11 ms·

To be fair, reinforced cockpit doors is pretty much the one measure that's NOT dismissed as security theatre.

by mrec 12y ago

VLM 12y ago
I can't imagine a more false statement, as the business model before 9/11 was do nothing and cooperate and everyone will be safe, and the business model after 9/11 is every person on the plane must rush the hijackers or thousands will be killed. So the reinforced door is a response to a problem that no longer exists. Ideally you'd have a door that is strong enough to be "people proof" for long enough for the entire passenger compartment to rush a dude, but not strong enough to survive the entire passenger compartment trying to get in and save the plane in this situation. Something that can survive a couple kicks but isn't a bank vault door. Pretty much a typical apartment door would be about right.
- willvarfar 12y ago
  If the attackers enter the cockpit they can doom the plane; If they are outside trying to get into the cockpit, there may be time for passengers to react and neutralize them?
- ptaipale 12y ago
  >So the reinforced door is a response to a problem that no longer exists. I very much disagree. Previously, an attacker could get to the cockpit by surprise and by suddenly overwhelming cabin crew. That is now much. much more difficult.
  - nullrouted 12y ago
    How? The door is still locked, just not heavily reenforced. Passengers are going to notice someone trying to kick the door down and you can believe that person will be taken care of quickly.
    - ptaipale 12y ago
      Safety procedures in airplanes are generally not based on "passengers are going to notice and react". If you have a specific role for some passengers, like subduing disruptive individuals or opening and operating an emergency exit, the passengers are informed and qualified for the job. For instance, if you sit on an exit row, you need to be physically agile enough, and the crew instructs you to learn how to operate the door.
- ckozlowski 12y ago
  Assuming your attacker is easily identified prior to reaching the door. I disagree on this one. Bruce Schneier, who writes often, and passionately, on the ridicelousness of "security theater", cites doors (along with your your statement that passengers must resist) as having improved safety to a measurable degree. But there isn't, sadly, an absolutely fix for every vulnerability. We can reduce the number of incidents and mitigate the risk, but some will always remain. It is the price one pays for such extraordinary freedoms and luxuries. https://www.schneier.com/news/archives/2008/11/the_things_he_carrie.html https://www.schneier.com/news/archives/2008/11/the_things_he...
- Cthulhu_ 12y ago
  But then how long would it take to break open the door in this case? I haven't read about the time between when the descent was set in, the pilot returning and realizing he was locked out - I'm sure someone that deliberately wants to crash the plane can do so within a minute (dump fuel, start a nosedive at max speed and start spinning, etc). You can't break open a door when your plane is upside-down.

To be fair, reinforced cockpit doors is pretty much the one measure that's NOT dismissed as security theatre.

by mrec 12y ago

To be fair, reinforced cockpit doors is pretty much the one measure that's NOT dismissed as security theatre.

VLM 12y ago

I can't imagine a more false statement, as the business model before 9/11 was do nothing and cooperate and everyone will be safe, and the business model after 9/11 is every person on the plane must rush the hijackers or thousands will be killed. So the reinforced door is a response to a problem that no longer exists. Ideally you'd have a door that is strong enough to be "people proof" for long enough for the entire passenger compartment to rush a dude, but not strong enough to survive the entire passenger compartment trying to get in and save the plane in this situation. Something that can survive a couple kicks but isn't a bank vault door. Pretty much a typical apartment door would be about right.

willvarfar 12y ago
If the attackers enter the cockpit they can doom the plane; If they are outside trying to get into the cockpit, there may be time for passengers to react and neutralize them?
ptaipale 12y ago
>So the reinforced door is a response to a problem that no longer exists. I very much disagree. Previously, an attacker could get to the cockpit by surprise and by suddenly overwhelming cabin crew. That is now much. much more difficult.
- nullrouted 12y ago
  How? The door is still locked, just not heavily reenforced. Passengers are going to notice someone trying to kick the door down and you can believe that person will be taken care of quickly.
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    Safety procedures in airplanes are generally not based on "passengers are going to notice and react". If you have a specific role for some passengers, like subduing disruptive individuals or opening and operating an emergency exit, the passengers are informed and qualified for the job. For instance, if you sit on an exit row, you need to be physically agile enough, and the crew instructs you to learn how to operate the door.
ckozlowski 12y ago
Assuming your attacker is easily identified prior to reaching the door. I disagree on this one. Bruce Schneier, who writes often, and passionately, on the ridicelousness of "security theater", cites doors (along with your your statement that passengers must resist) as having improved safety to a measurable degree. But there isn't, sadly, an absolutely fix for every vulnerability. We can reduce the number of incidents and mitigate the risk, but some will always remain. It is the price one pays for such extraordinary freedoms and luxuries. https://www.schneier.com/news/archives/2008/11/the_things_he_carrie.html https://www.schneier.com/news/archives/2008/11/the_things_he...
Cthulhu_ 12y ago
But then how long would it take to break open the door in this case? I haven't read about the time between when the descent was set in, the pilot returning and realizing he was locked out - I'm sure someone that deliberately wants to crash the plane can do so within a minute (dump fuel, start a nosedive at max speed and start spinning, etc). You can't break open a door when your plane is upside-down.