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I wonder how much that would have helped in this case though. Someone determined to crash a plane would not have too much of a problem incapacitating any cabin

by koyote 12y ago

I wonder how much that would have helped in this case though. Someone determined to crash a plane would not have too much of a problem incapacitating any cabin crew member (by surprise most likely) before his attempt. I believe that having a second person in the cockpit is more useful (and seemingly essential) if the Pilot/Co-Pilot loses conciousness in order for the door to still be opened.

Someone 12y ago
From what I understand the door can be opened from the outside. If true, the only case where having a second person present would be one where an unrelated emergency develops that requires immediate attention at the moment the first person becomes unconscious. I think that scenario is handled by requiring both officers to be in the cockpit at the times where such emergencies are most likely to develop (take off and landing) Also, that second person would have to be able to fly the airplane. That would mean having a 3-person crew flying the plane (something that Airbus has worked hard at getting rid of for cost reasons), or having a bathroom in the cockpit (impractical, I guess) In this case I think a remote operator could have seen that something was wrong for minutes, and could have taken over control of the plane, but of course, having that ability carries its own risks.
TillE 12y ago
It's not an absolute solution, but it makes such a crime both psychologically and physically much more difficult. Turning a knob is impersonal and easy, but killing someone with your hands is neither.
- Htsthbjig 12y ago
  "Turning a knob is impersonal and easy, but killing someone with your hands is neither." Killing someone is extremely easy if the other person trust you. You get behind her and hit her with a heavy object in the head or in the nape. If the pilot is busy doing something like piloting the plane, it is very easy for a copilot to get rid of her.
  - pdabbadabba 12y ago
    > Killing someone is extremely easy if the other person trust you. You get behind her and hit her with a heavy object in the head or in the nape. That makes it physically easy, but the psychological demands of that situation are clearly very different from turning a knob. I think there's good reason to think that there are people who would do the former, but not the latter. If the pilot is inclined to crash the plane due to overwhelming depression, for example, I doubt that this pilot is likely to also kill a flight attendant with his bare hands.
  - hfourm 12y ago
    Also I think it would be hard to surprise a crew member in the confines of a cockpit... Most likely would result in at least some type of physical struggle
shin_lao 12y ago
If this is a suicidal flash, the presence of another person might be enough to prevent that from appearing.
- id 12y ago
  Suicide is very rarely impulsive. Especially murder-suicide.
  - shin_lao 12y ago
    Please document yourself: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/impulsivity/ http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/impuls...
hvidgaard 12y ago
There is a significant gap from "lock the door, and crash the plane" and to "knock a person out, and then lock the door and crash the plane". Both have the same outcome, but the first require physical confrontation that I'm certain would make a difference in some situations.
diminoten 12y ago
My initial reaction to this is the fact that the co-pilot didn't attempt to seize the plane from the pilot or other crew, but only took advantage of an opportunity. In this specific case, it may be possible that the co-pilot would not have forced the situation where he was in sole control of the plane. The emotional side of me wants to call the man a coward, and a coward wouldn't be openly aggressive towards a flight attendant, but that's not a very productive point of view. In future cases, there's just no reason why a future murderous co-pilot couldn't be more aggressive, so it's still a situation worth considering.
- caf 12y ago
  Indeed in the MI185 case it's thought that the pilot killed the co-pilot with a fire axe before bringing down the aircraft.
lstroud 12y ago
The flight attendant also wedges the door open (and blocks entry/exit with a cart during this time. Yes, they could incapacitate, but it would take time to do this, get the door closed, and dead bolted. One would hope that the commotion would bring help before all of that could be accomplished.

by koyote 12y ago

Someone 12y ago

From what I understand the door can be opened from the outside. If true, the only case where having a second person present would be one where an unrelated emergency develops that requires immediate attention at the moment the first person becomes unconscious. I think that scenario is handled by requiring both officers to be in the cockpit at the times where such emergencies are most likely to develop (take off and landing) Also, that second person would have to be able to fly the airplane. That would mean having a 3-person crew flying the plane (something that Airbus has worked hard at getting rid of for cost reasons), or having a bathroom in the cockpit (impractical, I guess) In this case I think a remote operator could have seen that something was wrong for minutes, and could have taken over control of the plane, but of course, having that ability carries its own risks.

TillE 12y ago

It's not an absolute solution, but it makes such a crime both psychologically and physically much more difficult. Turning a knob is impersonal and easy, but killing someone with your hands is neither.

Htsthbjig 12y ago
"Turning a knob is impersonal and easy, but killing someone with your hands is neither." Killing someone is extremely easy if the other person trust you. You get behind her and hit her with a heavy object in the head or in the nape. If the pilot is busy doing something like piloting the plane, it is very easy for a copilot to get rid of her.
- pdabbadabba 12y ago
  > Killing someone is extremely easy if the other person trust you. You get behind her and hit her with a heavy object in the head or in the nape. That makes it physically easy, but the psychological demands of that situation are clearly very different from turning a knob. I think there's good reason to think that there are people who would do the former, but not the latter. If the pilot is inclined to crash the plane due to overwhelming depression, for example, I doubt that this pilot is likely to also kill a flight attendant with his bare hands.
- hfourm 12y ago
  Also I think it would be hard to surprise a crew member in the confines of a cockpit... Most likely would result in at least some type of physical struggle

shin_lao 12y ago

If this is a suicidal flash, the presence of another person might be enough to prevent that from appearing.

id 12y ago
Suicide is very rarely impulsive. Especially murder-suicide.
- shin_lao 12y ago
  Please document yourself: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/impulsivity/ http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/impuls...

hvidgaard 12y ago

There is a significant gap from "lock the door, and crash the plane" and to "knock a person out, and then lock the door and crash the plane". Both have the same outcome, but the first require physical confrontation that I'm certain would make a difference in some situations.

diminoten 12y ago

My initial reaction to this is the fact that the co-pilot didn't attempt to seize the plane from the pilot or other crew, but only took advantage of an opportunity. In this specific case, it may be possible that the co-pilot would not have forced the situation where he was in sole control of the plane. The emotional side of me wants to call the man a coward, and a coward wouldn't be openly aggressive towards a flight attendant, but that's not a very productive point of view. In future cases, there's just no reason why a future murderous co-pilot couldn't be more aggressive, so it's still a situation worth considering.

caf 12y ago
Indeed in the MI185 case it's thought that the pilot killed the co-pilot with a fire axe before bringing down the aircraft.

lstroud 12y ago

The flight attendant also wedges the door open (and blocks entry/exit with a cart during this time. Yes, they could incapacitate, but it would take time to do this, get the door closed, and dead bolted. One would hope that the commotion would bring help before all of that could be accomplished.