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You wrote "influenced a lot of JavaScript standards people." Please name two. You wrote "The same is actually happening to the unique features of Dart such as

You wrote "influenced a lot of JavaScript standards people." Please name two. You wrote "The same is actually happening to the unique features of Dart such as typing and SIMD and better modules." My reply: no, yes (thanks to bottom-up work by John McCutchan, not "Dart people" plural -- there you go again), and nope. Any types for ES7/2016 or beyond are likely to be based on TypeScript, Flow, and V8's SoundScript experiment, not on Dart. Modules in ES6 have no relation to Dart modules/packages. Really, "exaggeration" doesn't being to capture the false overreach of your first comment, and walking back from it to vague "everything's influencing JS" isn't helping. Apart from SIMD, Google by investing in Dart at cost to JS (recreated V8 team; replace-not-embrace strategy for ~5 years) missed out on uplifting ES6 to have bignums and other things that would materially aid correctness and performance of dart2js, which is now the only way forward for Dart in browsers. I hate playing Cassandra, but the good news is that Troy didn't fall: JS prevailed, at some unnecessary cost, and as predicted. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2982949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2982949 et seq.

michaelwww 12y ago
John McCutchan caught my attention early on and my hat goes off to him. He brought a unique perspective to advancing performance. I went from Dart to TypeScript to pure JavaScript for a variety of reasons, and I must say productivity in Dart is higher, sometimes much higher. However the Dart2js output and interface makes it less attractive despite higher productivity. I took from the announcement that Google will focus on fixing that, which is encouraging. It's really the only way forward for Dart, since no one else, and now Chrome, is going to include the VM.
- munificent 12y ago
  > I took from the announcement that Google will focus on fixing that, which is encouraging. That's exactly right. We have a bunch of people working feverishly on more human-friendly JS output: https://github.com/dart-lang/dev_compiler https://github.com/dart-lang/dev_compiler
bhouston 12y ago
Weird, I really didn't expect this conversation... (1) I am referring to the high level features of Dart and CoffeeScript, not the specific implementation of features. Specifically I am referring to the clear reduction in CoffeeScript/Dart positive differentiators over the past few years, mostly because future JavaScript (es6/es7) is moving aggressively to close the gap and then go beyond Dart/CoffeeScript. This is a great thing. (2) I am a complete outsider to the standardization process - I actually know no one involved in the process. So why did I make the inference then so confidently? I've been doing software product development in competitive industries for a couple decades now. I know how it works. People are always influenced by competitors to push ahead faster and smarter, especially competitors that try to jump ahead. This comment of mine from two years ago sums up my feelings of Dart and its influence on JavaScript: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5728786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5728786
- bhouston 12y ago
  A last note, I didn't intend my comment to be interpreted in the hard fashion that you are interpreting it -- how could I given my outsider status? I apologize for it being open to that interpretation. I do view most of your criticisms to be based on this unintentional straw man interpretation of my points: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
  - BrendanEich 12y ago
    I did not make any straw-man arguments. You wrote specific words (I've quoted them) that denote things that I know to be false. You now seem to admit this. Are we done yet?
    - bhouston 12y ago
      > You wrote specific words (I've quoted them) that denote things that I know to be false. You admitted both the influence on you of CoffeeScript (e.g. fat arrow) and also that the Dart SIMD standard guy did the ES7 SIMD standard. Thus at minimum both CoffeeScript and Dart have influenced directly what has ended up in future versions of JavaScript via the JavaScript standards people. So that original claim of mine is true at minimum, only the qualification of the influence being significant/large is at question. Near equivalent features to those of Dart and CoffeeScript are rapidly being added to future JavaScript, including fat arrow, typing, classes, SIMD, Futures, async/await, etc. Whether or not these features are directly based on Dart or not doesn't change the fact that it is happening. So that original claim of mine is also true. E.g.: https://robots.thoughtbot.com/replace-coffeescript-with-es6 https://robots.thoughtbot.com/replace-coffeescript-with-es6 The intensity of this argument about an admittedly overly vague hacker news comment is surreal. While I respect your work highly, benefit from it significantly, and it wasn't my intention to diminish your contributions or effort or anything else, I can not continue this.

michaelwww 12y ago

John McCutchan caught my attention early on and my hat goes off to him. He brought a unique perspective to advancing performance. I went from Dart to TypeScript to pure JavaScript for a variety of reasons, and I must say productivity in Dart is higher, sometimes much higher. However the Dart2js output and interface makes it less attractive despite higher productivity. I took from the announcement that Google will focus on fixing that, which is encouraging. It's really the only way forward for Dart, since no one else, and now Chrome, is going to include the VM.

munificent 12y ago
> I took from the announcement that Google will focus on fixing that, which is encouraging. That's exactly right. We have a bunch of people working feverishly on more human-friendly JS output: https://github.com/dart-lang/dev_compiler https://github.com/dart-lang/dev_compiler

bhouston 12y ago

Weird, I really didn't expect this conversation... (1) I am referring to the high level features of Dart and CoffeeScript, not the specific implementation of features. Specifically I am referring to the clear reduction in CoffeeScript/Dart positive differentiators over the past few years, mostly because future JavaScript (es6/es7) is moving aggressively to close the gap and then go beyond Dart/CoffeeScript. This is a great thing. (2) I am a complete outsider to the standardization process - I actually know no one involved in the process. So why did I make the inference then so confidently? I've been doing software product development in competitive industries for a couple decades now. I know how it works. People are always influenced by competitors to push ahead faster and smarter, especially competitors that try to jump ahead. This comment of mine from two years ago sums up my feelings of Dart and its influence on JavaScript: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5728786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5728786

bhouston 12y ago
A last note, I didn't intend my comment to be interpreted in the hard fashion that you are interpreting it -- how could I given my outsider status? I apologize for it being open to that interpretation. I do view most of your criticisms to be based on this unintentional straw man interpretation of my points: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
- BrendanEich 12y ago
  I did not make any straw-man arguments. You wrote specific words (I've quoted them) that denote things that I know to be false. You now seem to admit this. Are we done yet?
  - bhouston 12y ago
    > You wrote specific words (I've quoted them) that denote things that I know to be false. You admitted both the influence on you of CoffeeScript (e.g. fat arrow) and also that the Dart SIMD standard guy did the ES7 SIMD standard. Thus at minimum both CoffeeScript and Dart have influenced directly what has ended up in future versions of JavaScript via the JavaScript standards people. So that original claim of mine is true at minimum, only the qualification of the influence being significant/large is at question. Near equivalent features to those of Dart and CoffeeScript are rapidly being added to future JavaScript, including fat arrow, typing, classes, SIMD, Futures, async/await, etc. Whether or not these features are directly based on Dart or not doesn't change the fact that it is happening. So that original claim of mine is also true. E.g.: https://robots.thoughtbot.com/replace-coffeescript-with-es6 https://robots.thoughtbot.com/replace-coffeescript-with-es6 The intensity of this argument about an admittedly overly vague hacker news comment is surreal. While I respect your work highly, benefit from it significantly, and it wasn't my intention to diminish your contributions or effort or anything else, I can not continue this.