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> My only worry is that the innovators behind Dart are going to be stuck on the Dart project while JavaScript gains their features and even more momentum. I wou

> My only worry is that the innovators behind Dart are going to be stuck on the Dart project while JavaScript gains their features and even more momentum. I would suggest that they let Dart die and not be stuck with it for years after it has stopped being relevant -- that would be a waste of their talents as they did really see what the future would be. I am somewhat sympathetic to what you are saying here. OTOH, the fact that the web is basically all one programming language[1] is a situation that I find a bit unfortunate. Why shouldn't the browser have a PL ecosystem as rich as the desktop? And why couldn't Dart be part of that? [1] Yes, I know the world is full of compile-to-JS languages. But still, being a web developer today mostly means being a JS developer.

hmsimha 12y ago
I know absolute fuck-all about dart, but I do know that a programming language is just a tool. At the end of the day, a good programmer should be able to learn to use the best tool for the job, even if that tool resembles a swiss army knife. It's apparent that Javascript has taken cues from nearly every other modern programming language at this point. The leaps and bounds being made with ES6 and ES7 are simply astounding. Of course, I have no problem seeing the development of languages like Dart, Coffeescript, and Typescript that compile to javascript, but I think there's an argument to be made for the reduced need of these. The development effort being poured into them has shaped javascript, but I think what many people are realizing is that the focus doesn't need to be on creating new languages that compile to Javascript, when it can be on advancing Javascript even further.
- glesica 12y ago
  > but I do know that a programming language is just a tool. So I take it you write all your *nix programs in C?
  - bandrami 12y ago
    > So I take it you write all your *nix programs in C? That's the only sane answer if you have any intention of redistributing them.
- oswego 12y ago
  > a good programmer should be able to learn to use the best tool for the job... So you think JavaScript is the best tool for the job? I don't think so.
- xixixao 12y ago
  I just wonder, relatively, how big is the part of the ES6/7 driving community which were the people who hated on CoffeeScript because it required a compilation step (and now they love BabelJS). There will be things which you will always hate about JavaScript, visible, on the surface, and that will never go away. Compiled-to-js languages can hide these. This has been the best part of CoffeeScript, where it really shined, and this will carry over future compiled-to-js languages (PureScript, Elm etc.). Unless it turns out that JS+Flow is actually the best balance between flexibility and safety and the world will reach "singularity".
  - wycats 12y ago
    I don't remember much of an objection to CoffeeScript on the grounds that it requires a compilation step. For example, here was my statement advising Discourse to avoid CoffeeScript in 2013: https://meta.discourse.org/t/is-it-better-for-discourse-to-use-javascript-or-coffeescript/3153/19 https://meta.discourse.org/t/is-it-better-for-discourse-to-u...
- Retra 12y ago
  >I do know that a programming language is just a tool. I'm probably going to sound very negative in saying this, but I _really_ hate it when people pull this line out like it means anything. Only in the most narrow, trite sense is a programming language "just a tool." They are the whole reason programmers exist. Language is the single most important development in human history, and computers have touched human life in irreversible and undeniably important ways. Everything is just a tool, if you look at it the right way, and it takes a particular kind of pointlessness to opt to see the world like that. Language is the thing that makes the genie grant your wish. If you wish with the wrong words, you get a billion dollar tombstone.

hmsimha 12y ago

I know absolute fuck-all about dart, but I do know that a programming language is just a tool. At the end of the day, a good programmer should be able to learn to use the best tool for the job, even if that tool resembles a swiss army knife. It's apparent that Javascript has taken cues from nearly every other modern programming language at this point. The leaps and bounds being made with ES6 and ES7 are simply astounding. Of course, I have no problem seeing the development of languages like Dart, Coffeescript, and Typescript that compile to javascript, but I think there's an argument to be made for the reduced need of these. The development effort being poured into them has shaped javascript, but I think what many people are realizing is that the focus doesn't need to be on creating new languages that compile to Javascript, when it can be on advancing Javascript even further.

glesica 12y ago
> but I do know that a programming language is just a tool. So I take it you write all your *nix programs in C?
- bandrami 12y ago
  > So I take it you write all your *nix programs in C? That's the only sane answer if you have any intention of redistributing them.
oswego 12y ago
> a good programmer should be able to learn to use the best tool for the job... So you think JavaScript is the best tool for the job? I don't think so.
xixixao 12y ago
I just wonder, relatively, how big is the part of the ES6/7 driving community which were the people who hated on CoffeeScript because it required a compilation step (and now they love BabelJS). There will be things which you will always hate about JavaScript, visible, on the surface, and that will never go away. Compiled-to-js languages can hide these. This has been the best part of CoffeeScript, where it really shined, and this will carry over future compiled-to-js languages (PureScript, Elm etc.). Unless it turns out that JS+Flow is actually the best balance between flexibility and safety and the world will reach "singularity".
- wycats 12y ago
  I don't remember much of an objection to CoffeeScript on the grounds that it requires a compilation step. For example, here was my statement advising Discourse to avoid CoffeeScript in 2013: https://meta.discourse.org/t/is-it-better-for-discourse-to-use-javascript-or-coffeescript/3153/19 https://meta.discourse.org/t/is-it-better-for-discourse-to-u...
Retra 12y ago
>I do know that a programming language is just a tool. I'm probably going to sound very negative in saying this, but I _really_ hate it when people pull this line out like it means anything. Only in the most narrow, trite sense is a programming language "just a tool." They are the whole reason programmers exist. Language is the single most important development in human history, and computers have touched human life in irreversible and undeniably important ways. Everything is just a tool, if you look at it the right way, and it takes a particular kind of pointlessness to opt to see the world like that. Language is the thing that makes the genie grant your wish. If you wish with the wrong words, you get a billion dollar tombstone.