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I have a feeling that anything other than "free market capitalism" is going to be shunned around these parts. :) Great read. And the predecessor as well. https

I have a feeling that anything other than "free market capitalism" is going to be shunned around these parts. :) Great read. And the predecessor as well. https://medium.com/@cjdew/the-obsolescence-of-capitalism-340ad9fafd8f https://medium.com/@cjdew/the-obsolescence-of-capitalism-340...

ancap 12y ago
>I have a feeling that anything other than "free market capitalism" is going to be shunned around these parts. As it should. If it weren't for capitalism we would not enjoy any of the abundance we have become accustomed to having in the past century. Capitalism, as limited as it is in the current world, has provided such that royalty of past centuries would envy certain aspects of a poor person's life today (I'm talking first world country poor). The main problem with this article, and many like it, is it identifies problems existing in today's world, and then completely misattributes them. For example, the problem with food distribution has very little to do with businesses, or individuals, desiring profit. Neither does inequality (if we can even call that a problem) stem from capitalism.
- worik 12y ago
  (a) How is it possible to say "if we can even call that a problem" re inequality? (b) How is it possible to say inequality does not stem from capitalism? Where else could it stem from. I am not advocating the abolition of capitalism, I advocate a mixed economy.
  - tsotha 12y ago
    Maybe inequality stems from the fact that people aren't equal in their strengths and weaknesses? If you could construct an ideal merit-based system you'd see quit a bit of inequality.
    - worik 12y ago
      The problem with inequality in modern western "democracies" is not that people are not equal. The problem is that the inequalities are so stark and wide. Campaigners against inequality (who are xampaigners for economic and social justice by and large) do not campaign to make every one "equal", but to make the spread smaller and the lives of those with the least less bleak. I live in New Zealand which is a modern industrialised democracy and is quite wealthy. We have large sections of our population that are malnourished, inadequately housed, poorly educated and cut off from main stream society. The proportion of our population suffering so was much less in the years between the depression and the 1980s, during which a conscious effort was made by the state to maintain a high wage full employment economy. The policies that worked then will not work now, but what we have is not working and is generating large costs and inefficiencies. So it is irrelevant that "inequality stems from the fact that people aren't equal in their strengths and weaknesses". The conditions of the weakest and the degree to which the strongest can corral the resources is what counts W
      - tsotha 12y ago
        >The policies that worked then will not work now, but what we have is not working and is generating large costs and inefficiencies. I see no evidence this is true. For me economic inequality isn't a problem as long as people are equal under the law.
  - ancap 12y ago
    (a) - Person A is an upper class CEO living in the U.S. in the 1930s. He has a large mansion, a paid cook and other staff which care for the "menial stuff." It's likely his bank account will never drop below seven digits. Martian A is an explorer who travels the universe in the year 2430. When he's hungry he commands his computer to make him some food. Other of his needs are met with similar ease. Is Person A inequal from Martian A? Yes. Is one of their lifestyle's more desirable than the other? Perhaps, that's for the individual to say. Is it a problem? No. (b) - >Where else could it stem from How about the fascist system of government which partners with businesses to provide them special perks? How about the Federal Reserve which creates new money which becomes first available to connected businesses and in turn they benefit the most? How about any number of regulations, including minimum wage which makes it unprofitable to hire low-skilled workers? >How is it possible to say inequality does not stem from capitalism? Prove that it does.
    - jackbravo 12y ago
      I really liked your point B. I think it is very well put and shines light in real problems, instead of just saying "Damn capitalism!". I didn't liked your point A. Your comparison doesn't make any sense.
      - ancap 12y ago
        I gave an example of two individuals who were unequal--"Person A" and "Martian A". As best as I can tell, there is no problem with there being inequality between these two individuals.
  - dnautics 12y ago
    (b) inequality is the natural course of matters, but it's hard to argue that free markets don't even out inequality by allowing people to trade down their comparative advantages for goods that others provide. There is a disconnect between the colloquial form of capitalism which is conflated with 'free markets' and a generous reading of marx's concept of capitalism: as in "capital -ism", or the idea that accruing capital is a social good in and of itself. Note that capital-ism in the most general sense does include the concept of 'crony capitalism' whereas free-market-ism shuns 'crony capitalism'. Crony capitalism aside, it is unclear if capitalism necessarily creates (more) inequality, although it does underpin a philosophical motive to drive individuals to extract the most from their competitive advantage, that doesn't mean they will be successful at it. 'Mixed economies', while they sound nice and centrist, I think, tend to be the worst. Ultimately, it creates a vehicle by which political comparative advantage, which is zero-sum, and coercive (if you don't follow the law you can be thrown in jail) to economic advantage, which more easily compounds.
- Dewie 12y ago
  > As it should. If it weren't for capitalism we would not enjoy any of the abundance we have become accustomed to having in the past century. That argument can't be directly applied to the future. Just because a system worked in the past, doesn't mean that it will work in a future world with different constraints. Hence why many think that today's capitalism is not a good political model for the envisioned future of mass automation. And of course we can't hold on to an idea out of reverence and respect, i.e. "be grateful for what it has done for you, you privileged first-world dweller, you".
  - ancap 12y ago
    I certainly sympathize with the meat of your arguments, but I take issue with the use of the word "capitalism". That capitalism is being used at all to describe our current system, is a misnomer.
    - Dewie 12y ago
      > That capitalism is being used at all to describe our current system, is a misnomer. Well then I'm confused, since I was just going by what you seemed to refer to. And I assumed that you were talking about a contemporary (now, + recent history) capitalistic system. What kind of capitalism were you talking about? Something that existed before but doesn't anymore?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- decals42 12y ago
  The problem with America incarcerating a larger percentage of its population than any nation in the history of the world can be directly attributed to the privatization of prisons, and the capitalist incentives they impose. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289 http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-unit... The problem with inequality is that the 20th century middle class was specifically what made America great, by providing a consumer base to buy all the wonderful things people wanted to make. You can only sell so many jeans to the richest one percent.
  - protomyth 12y ago
    "privatization of prisons, and the capitalist incentives they impose." No, it isn't the "capitalist" incentives, it the the damn foolish politicians setting incentives that are not generating a proper outcome. It has nothing to do with capitalism. You can bet if the private prisons were paid on capacity instead of occupancy and incentivized a bonus for non-returning prisoners after 5 years, you would get totally different results. Crappy incentives will destroy any economic system by generating bad actors. Look at the actions of the prison guards union in California and see the same behavior from a public perspective.
  - bcheung 12y ago
    Capitalism is more strongly correlated with freedom than inequality and prison. Think about what it was like before capitalism was around. Monarchs dictated everything. You did what you were assigned to do, which was pretty much what your parents and grandparents did. Capitalism allowed people to take risks and change their professions. The requirement to succeed was to provide something of value to others that they would buy from you. Those that provided more value were rewarded more. Sometimes capitalism can create incentives for a zero-sum game, but the vast majority of transactions are win/win with synergistic value creation.
  - bcheung 12y ago
    And you can only sell so many yachts to the 99%. Does that mean the economy is doomed? There are other things rich people buy besides jeans. Buying yachts requires much more fabric and seamstresses than jeans do. It also employs more people and a greater diversity of people than making jeans do; lumber workers, software engineers, nautical engineers, construction workers, seamstresses, welders, interior designers, architects, plumbers, and the list goes on. Buying a $30mil yacht results in a much greater economic stimulus than buying a million jeans ever would. There are a greater diversity of jobs required for luxury goods. This means people can work on what they want rather than all doing low skilled labor.
tomjen3 12y ago
In all my travels (on the interwebs) I have seen two articles arguing against capitalism that were worth reading. Easily twenty times that failed. So yeah, my bayesian filter is going to shun anything but free market capitalism. Especially because for many it has become a political stop-word, even though we sit in the greatest luxury in history. For me, any article that wants to replace capitalism first has to explain how it rolf-stomp every system that came before it, and how their new proposed system will augment capitalism.
- protomyth 12y ago
  Yep, in addition, I would like to see an article that effectively answers the arguments in Why Not Capitalism? by Jason Brennan. The book itself is a rebuttal and quite good. http://smile.amazon.com/Why-Not-Capitalism-Jason-Brennan/dp/0415732972/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427312368&sr=1-1&keywords=why+not+capitalism http://smile.amazon.com/Why-Not-Capitalism-Jason-Brennan/dp/...
- nemo 12y ago
  FWIW, capitalism isn't the same thing as "free market capitalism." There are plenty of good reasons to favor some forms of regulation (preventing monopolies, collusion, managing externalities like pollution, etc.). We have the wealth we have today due to a regulated capitalist system.
- Estragon 12y ago
  What were the two good ones?
  - tomjen3 12y ago
    http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/24/book-review-red-plenty/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/24/book-review-red-plenty/ Is one of them. It made a totally convincing argument for why socialism should rofl-stomp capitalism for production efficiency (which is quite something in that capitalism strength is rofl-stomping every other system in production efficiency). The other I have forgotten, but it basically proved that poor peoples minds worked differently (as a function of their environment) and so they really couldn't pull themselves up.

ancap 12y ago

>I have a feeling that anything other than "free market capitalism" is going to be shunned around these parts. As it should. If it weren't for capitalism we would not enjoy any of the abundance we have become accustomed to having in the past century. Capitalism, as limited as it is in the current world, has provided such that royalty of past centuries would envy certain aspects of a poor person's life today (I'm talking first world country poor). The main problem with this article, and many like it, is it identifies problems existing in today's world, and then completely misattributes them. For example, the problem with food distribution has very little to do with businesses, or individuals, desiring profit. Neither does inequality (if we can even call that a problem) stem from capitalism.

worik 12y ago
(a) How is it possible to say "if we can even call that a problem" re inequality? (b) How is it possible to say inequality does not stem from capitalism? Where else could it stem from. I am not advocating the abolition of capitalism, I advocate a mixed economy.
- tsotha 12y ago
  Maybe inequality stems from the fact that people aren't equal in their strengths and weaknesses? If you could construct an ideal merit-based system you'd see quit a bit of inequality.
  - worik 12y ago
    The problem with inequality in modern western "democracies" is not that people are not equal. The problem is that the inequalities are so stark and wide. Campaigners against inequality (who are xampaigners for economic and social justice by and large) do not campaign to make every one "equal", but to make the spread smaller and the lives of those with the least less bleak. I live in New Zealand which is a modern industrialised democracy and is quite wealthy. We have large sections of our population that are malnourished, inadequately housed, poorly educated and cut off from main stream society. The proportion of our population suffering so was much less in the years between the depression and the 1980s, during which a conscious effort was made by the state to maintain a high wage full employment economy. The policies that worked then will not work now, but what we have is not working and is generating large costs and inefficiencies. So it is irrelevant that "inequality stems from the fact that people aren't equal in their strengths and weaknesses". The conditions of the weakest and the degree to which the strongest can corral the resources is what counts W
    - tsotha 12y ago
      >The policies that worked then will not work now, but what we have is not working and is generating large costs and inefficiencies. I see no evidence this is true. For me economic inequality isn't a problem as long as people are equal under the law.
- ancap 12y ago
  (a) - Person A is an upper class CEO living in the U.S. in the 1930s. He has a large mansion, a paid cook and other staff which care for the "menial stuff." It's likely his bank account will never drop below seven digits. Martian A is an explorer who travels the universe in the year 2430. When he's hungry he commands his computer to make him some food. Other of his needs are met with similar ease. Is Person A inequal from Martian A? Yes. Is one of their lifestyle's more desirable than the other? Perhaps, that's for the individual to say. Is it a problem? No. (b) - >Where else could it stem from How about the fascist system of government which partners with businesses to provide them special perks? How about the Federal Reserve which creates new money which becomes first available to connected businesses and in turn they benefit the most? How about any number of regulations, including minimum wage which makes it unprofitable to hire low-skilled workers? >How is it possible to say inequality does not stem from capitalism? Prove that it does.
  - jackbravo 12y ago
    I really liked your point B. I think it is very well put and shines light in real problems, instead of just saying "Damn capitalism!". I didn't liked your point A. Your comparison doesn't make any sense.
    - ancap 12y ago
      I gave an example of two individuals who were unequal--"Person A" and "Martian A". As best as I can tell, there is no problem with there being inequality between these two individuals.
- dnautics 12y ago
  (b) inequality is the natural course of matters, but it's hard to argue that free markets don't even out inequality by allowing people to trade down their comparative advantages for goods that others provide. There is a disconnect between the colloquial form of capitalism which is conflated with 'free markets' and a generous reading of marx's concept of capitalism: as in "capital -ism", or the idea that accruing capital is a social good in and of itself. Note that capital-ism in the most general sense does include the concept of 'crony capitalism' whereas free-market-ism shuns 'crony capitalism'. Crony capitalism aside, it is unclear if capitalism necessarily creates (more) inequality, although it does underpin a philosophical motive to drive individuals to extract the most from their competitive advantage, that doesn't mean they will be successful at it. 'Mixed economies', while they sound nice and centrist, I think, tend to be the worst. Ultimately, it creates a vehicle by which political comparative advantage, which is zero-sum, and coercive (if you don't follow the law you can be thrown in jail) to economic advantage, which more easily compounds.
Dewie 12y ago
> As it should. If it weren't for capitalism we would not enjoy any of the abundance we have become accustomed to having in the past century. That argument can't be directly applied to the future. Just because a system worked in the past, doesn't mean that it will work in a future world with different constraints. Hence why many think that today's capitalism is not a good political model for the envisioned future of mass automation. And of course we can't hold on to an idea out of reverence and respect, i.e. "be grateful for what it has done for you, you privileged first-world dweller, you".
- ancap 12y ago
  I certainly sympathize with the meat of your arguments, but I take issue with the use of the word "capitalism". That capitalism is being used at all to describe our current system, is a misnomer.
  - Dewie 12y ago
    > That capitalism is being used at all to describe our current system, is a misnomer. Well then I'm confused, since I was just going by what you seemed to refer to. And I assumed that you were talking about a contemporary (now, + recent history) capitalistic system. What kind of capitalism were you talking about? Something that existed before but doesn't anymore?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
decals42 12y ago
The problem with America incarcerating a larger percentage of its population than any nation in the history of the world can be directly attributed to the privatization of prisons, and the capitalist incentives they impose. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289 http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-unit... The problem with inequality is that the 20th century middle class was specifically what made America great, by providing a consumer base to buy all the wonderful things people wanted to make. You can only sell so many jeans to the richest one percent.
- protomyth 12y ago
  "privatization of prisons, and the capitalist incentives they impose." No, it isn't the "capitalist" incentives, it the the damn foolish politicians setting incentives that are not generating a proper outcome. It has nothing to do with capitalism. You can bet if the private prisons were paid on capacity instead of occupancy and incentivized a bonus for non-returning prisoners after 5 years, you would get totally different results. Crappy incentives will destroy any economic system by generating bad actors. Look at the actions of the prison guards union in California and see the same behavior from a public perspective.
- bcheung 12y ago
  Capitalism is more strongly correlated with freedom than inequality and prison. Think about what it was like before capitalism was around. Monarchs dictated everything. You did what you were assigned to do, which was pretty much what your parents and grandparents did. Capitalism allowed people to take risks and change their professions. The requirement to succeed was to provide something of value to others that they would buy from you. Those that provided more value were rewarded more. Sometimes capitalism can create incentives for a zero-sum game, but the vast majority of transactions are win/win with synergistic value creation.
- bcheung 12y ago
  And you can only sell so many yachts to the 99%. Does that mean the economy is doomed? There are other things rich people buy besides jeans. Buying yachts requires much more fabric and seamstresses than jeans do. It also employs more people and a greater diversity of people than making jeans do; lumber workers, software engineers, nautical engineers, construction workers, seamstresses, welders, interior designers, architects, plumbers, and the list goes on. Buying a $30mil yacht results in a much greater economic stimulus than buying a million jeans ever would. There are a greater diversity of jobs required for luxury goods. This means people can work on what they want rather than all doing low skilled labor.

tomjen3 12y ago

In all my travels (on the interwebs) I have seen two articles arguing against capitalism that were worth reading. Easily twenty times that failed. So yeah, my bayesian filter is going to shun anything but free market capitalism. Especially because for many it has become a political stop-word, even though we sit in the greatest luxury in history. For me, any article that wants to replace capitalism first has to explain how it rolf-stomp every system that came before it, and how their new proposed system will augment capitalism.

protomyth 12y ago
Yep, in addition, I would like to see an article that effectively answers the arguments in Why Not Capitalism? by Jason Brennan. The book itself is a rebuttal and quite good. http://smile.amazon.com/Why-Not-Capitalism-Jason-Brennan/dp/0415732972/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427312368&sr=1-1&keywords=why+not+capitalism http://smile.amazon.com/Why-Not-Capitalism-Jason-Brennan/dp/...
nemo 12y ago
FWIW, capitalism isn't the same thing as "free market capitalism." There are plenty of good reasons to favor some forms of regulation (preventing monopolies, collusion, managing externalities like pollution, etc.). We have the wealth we have today due to a regulated capitalist system.
Estragon 12y ago
What were the two good ones?
- tomjen3 12y ago
  http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/24/book-review-red-plenty/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/24/book-review-red-plenty/ Is one of them. It made a totally convincing argument for why socialism should rofl-stomp capitalism for production efficiency (which is quite something in that capitalism strength is rofl-stomping every other system in production efficiency). The other I have forgotten, but it basically proved that poor peoples minds worked differently (as a function of their environment) and so they really couldn't pull themselves up.