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I think that most people don't fully appreciate the complex relationship between the government and the governed. What we've had in the past and are missing now

by exelius 12y ago

I think that most people don't fully appreciate the complex relationship between the government and the governed. What we've had in the past and are missing now is oversight. This comes in multiple forms: congressional oversight, regulatory oversight, judicial oversight, etc. Ultimately, if those methods failed, we always had the media to provide oversight - which is why until the last 20 years or so, freedom of the press was considered sacred. Real harm is happening today; it's just hard to prove. The entire reason there is no evidence that the NSA machine has been used for nefarious purposes is because they've designed the programs to avoid congressional oversight. The NSA/CIA deliberately and consistently lied to congress and the judiciary about the scope and legality of its programs. When the media stepped in because other oversight had failed, they were treated as traitors and threatened with jail. The reason for all this oversight is because totalitarianism is what creeps in when you have no oversight: in the absence of a watchdog, government will naturally work to make the task of governance more efficient. The most efficient method of government is totalitarianism, so their efforts will converge to this. This is absolutely the slippery slope argument: once oversight is removed, the government can do whatever it wants and threaten anyone who disagrees with treason.

twoodfin 12y ago
I don't buy the idea that oversight is profoundly lacking. The FISA court has ruled on many of these programs, Congressional intelligence committees and the leadership have been briefed (funding has to come from somewhere!), and as I said, we have an election every four years to pick a guy or gal who can call the head of the NSA or CIA into the Oval and demand whatever changes they'd like. That's one of the reasons elections matter. Anyway, this is way off topic from the Patriot Act, which of course happens more or less in full public view.
cmdkeen 12y ago
After Hoover died it became clear the level of actual corruption and control he had over Presidential elections, and how the FBI had been suborned to serve his personal and political beliefs. So there was a secret police period, except it was years ago and it didn't result in a totalitarian system. That did include the mass interception of mail and telephone calls, without the pesky need for warrants. What has happened is a relatively short period of time in which technically inclined Americans had access to a mass communication medium which was extremely difficult to intercept. Apart from that period of time it has always been the case that if the Government wanted to get you it could and would intercept your communications. The general public have probably just always operated on the assumption that their lives just aren't important enough to become the centre of attention.

by exelius 12y ago

twoodfin 12y ago

I don't buy the idea that oversight is profoundly lacking. The FISA court has ruled on many of these programs, Congressional intelligence committees and the leadership have been briefed (funding has to come from somewhere!), and as I said, we have an election every four years to pick a guy or gal who can call the head of the NSA or CIA into the Oval and demand whatever changes they'd like. That's one of the reasons elections matter. Anyway, this is way off topic from the Patriot Act, which of course happens more or less in full public view.

cmdkeen 12y ago

After Hoover died it became clear the level of actual corruption and control he had over Presidential elections, and how the FBI had been suborned to serve his personal and political beliefs. So there was a secret police period, except it was years ago and it didn't result in a totalitarian system. That did include the mass interception of mail and telephone calls, without the pesky need for warrants. What has happened is a relatively short period of time in which technically inclined Americans had access to a mass communication medium which was extremely difficult to intercept. Apart from that period of time it has always been the case that if the Government wanted to get you it could and would intercept your communications. The general public have probably just always operated on the assumption that their lives just aren't important enough to become the centre of attention.