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If the thesis were correct then 'zip', which has the arguments in the same order as tar, would also have the same issues. For example, to add/update an entry i

by dalke 12y ago

If the thesis were correct then 'zip', which has the arguments in the same order as tar, would also have the same issues. For example, to add/update an entry in a zip file, do: zip test.zip test/test.txt I have not heard of the zip command-line as being more or equally frustrating than tar, so I do not believe this thesis is correct.

FreakyT 12y ago
That's a good point, though I feel like that may just arise from 'zip' being the less commonly encountered of the two utilities.
- dalke 12y ago
  I am unable to compare the number of Windows-based developers, who often use zip as an archive format, and Java-based developers, who often use zip to work with jar files, to the number of people who use tar. My guess is that tar users would be in the minority. How did you come to the conclusion about which is most commonly encountered? Also, other popular archivers also use the archive-first approach: 7z.exe a c:\a.7z file1.txt dir2\file2.txt rar a -r yourfiles.rar *.txt c:\yourfolder
  - dagw 12y ago
    zip is almost certainly the most used archive format, but that doesn't mean the the 'zip' command line tool is more used than the 'tar' command line tool. Even though I've probably run across more .zip files than .tar files (and certainly more archives of in the zip format) in my career, if undoubtedly typed 't-a-r' on a command line many more times than 'z-i-p'.
    - dalke 12y ago
      Oh, I certainly use tar more than zip. My downloads directory has 67 tar files and 15 zip files. Bear in mind though that the hypothesis is not specific to Unix development. The examples are: cp file1.txt file2.txt file3.txt destination/ mv file1.txt file2.txt file3.txt destination/ The equivalent in MS Windows command shell is: copy file1.txt file2.txt file3.txt destination\ move file1.txt file2.txt file3.txt destination\ The hypothesis makes the prediction that Windows command-line users (which is a subset of all Windows users) will have similar problems with zip/7zip/rar's "inverted" command-line parameters. Similarly, the hypothesis predicts that people who use the command-line to work regularly with .jar, .odf, and other zip-based file formats will also have problem with the ordering. I have not heard of such problems, but I am not knowledgeable about those areas of development.
canjobear 12y ago
It definitely did take me a few tries to figure out how to use 'zip' the first time in the command line on OSX.
- dalke 12y ago
  Was it because the argument ordering was backwards from what you expected, or for some other reason, like not knowing the specific command-line options? For me it was the second.
LukeShu 12y ago
Well, zip came after tar, so it probably followed tar's order (as did the `jar` command which even follows tar syntax). Now, consider the `ar` command, which came before tar, for which the analogous command would be ar cr test.a test/test.txt

by dalke 12y ago

FreakyT 12y ago

That's a good point, though I feel like that may just arise from 'zip' being the less commonly encountered of the two utilities.

dalke 12y ago
I am unable to compare the number of Windows-based developers, who often use zip as an archive format, and Java-based developers, who often use zip to work with jar files, to the number of people who use tar. My guess is that tar users would be in the minority. How did you come to the conclusion about which is most commonly encountered? Also, other popular archivers also use the archive-first approach: 7z.exe a c:\a.7z file1.txt dir2\file2.txt rar a -r yourfiles.rar *.txt c:\yourfolder
- dagw 12y ago
  zip is almost certainly the most used archive format, but that doesn't mean the the 'zip' command line tool is more used than the 'tar' command line tool. Even though I've probably run across more .zip files than .tar files (and certainly more archives of in the zip format) in my career, if undoubtedly typed 't-a-r' on a command line many more times than 'z-i-p'.
  - dalke 12y ago
    Oh, I certainly use tar more than zip. My downloads directory has 67 tar files and 15 zip files. Bear in mind though that the hypothesis is not specific to Unix development. The examples are: cp file1.txt file2.txt file3.txt destination/ mv file1.txt file2.txt file3.txt destination/ The equivalent in MS Windows command shell is: copy file1.txt file2.txt file3.txt destination\ move file1.txt file2.txt file3.txt destination\ The hypothesis makes the prediction that Windows command-line users (which is a subset of all Windows users) will have similar problems with zip/7zip/rar's "inverted" command-line parameters. Similarly, the hypothesis predicts that people who use the command-line to work regularly with .jar, .odf, and other zip-based file formats will also have problem with the ordering. I have not heard of such problems, but I am not knowledgeable about those areas of development.

canjobear 12y ago

It definitely did take me a few tries to figure out how to use 'zip' the first time in the command line on OSX.

dalke 12y ago
Was it because the argument ordering was backwards from what you expected, or for some other reason, like not knowing the specific command-line options? For me it was the second.

LukeShu 12y ago

Well, zip came after tar, so it probably followed tar's order (as did the `jar` command which even follows tar syntax). Now, consider the `ar` command, which came before tar, for which the analogous command would be ar cr test.a test/test.txt