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But capitalism is also what channels the human instinct to survive into productivity. Sure some subset of geeks can be motivated purely by creativity under a c

But capitalism is also what channels the human instinct to survive into productivity. Sure some subset of geeks can be motivated purely by creativity under a communist system, but I'd be dubious that it could overall match the velocity of Silicon Valley's innovation engine even granting the sizable implied waste reduction.

cgag 12y ago
Free people not being able to match the pace of people desperately trying to free themselves from wage slavery doesn't strike me as a great justification of wage slavery. Not that I agree with the premise that capitalism is what drives people to produce things to begin with.
- logicchains 12y ago
  Are these people trying to desperately free themselves from wage slavery the same people who spend most of their time watching tv, playing games or caring for children nobody forced them to have? If so they don't seem so desperate to me. Generally the people I've met who work hard to develop themselves and develop skills society needs end up doing quite well for themselves, although I admit that as an Australian my experience is probably different from the US. Here we have more socialised education and healthcare, so anyone with motivation can go to college.
  - nickysielicki 12y ago
    Most are born into this society and never consider the notion that things could ever be different.
  - sk5t 12y ago
    It's interesting that you suppose the AU and US results are likely to be different. As an USian I do not perceive that the system very often fails smart, motivated, hardworking people, healthcare and education regimes notwithstanding.
    - jsankey 12y ago
      Then how do you explain the low socio-economic mobility in the US? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_... The good news is everyone is getting richer (rising tide), the bad news is inequality is increasing and low mobility is nothing to be proud of. Like logicchains I'm Aussie and we fare better at the moment, though we're also starting to head in the wrong direction by these measures.
      - lectrick 12y ago
        Isn't your government incredibly conservative at the moment?
        jsankey 12y ago
        Yes it is, and if they get their way I believe it will be a disaster for both equality and long term growth here. They are aiming to move education and health to more of a user pays model (which makes no sense given the evidence worldwide) and continue their party's privatisation-by-stealth in both areas. Fortunately they are not very competent and do not have full control of the parliament, so most of their bills have been blocked by minor parties.
        orthecreedence 12y ago
        The scary thing is that the largest players in the private market here financially back (or lobby for) a lot of the shenanigans that happen in the capital...denial of climate change, privatization (or abolishment) of public services/utilities, slashing education, etc etc. The not very competent people who wave snowballs around in congress, send bitchy letters to Iran and Israel, and squawk about #OBAMANET have full corporate sponsorship and the propaganda machine that is our media keeps getting these imbeciles elected. The US is definitely treading water right now. I remain hopeful, but not optimistic.
    - logicchains 12y ago
      From this forum, which is probably my largest source of interaction with Americans, I get the impression that most Americans think life is extremely hard for the lower class there.
nickysielicki 12y ago
* 5 million people dead in the Congo, stealing rare minerals and putting them in your iPhone. * Destroying our earth with a pathetically broad plan for stopping (read: we won't). * We're creating technological systems that pose the greatest threat against freedom ever. * We're killing hundreds of thousands in the middle east because they pose threats to our Saudi oil fields. Yay, productivity. What I'm saying here, is that it doesn't have to be this way. Capitalism drives a population to productivity in the same way meth does: destructively.
- pswenson 12y ago
  alternative?
  - nickysielicki 12y ago
    <actual-advice> I have no good answers for you. If the atrocities above bother you, you can do your part and opt out from the sides of society that requires you to be a part of it. We just need a cultural shift to stop being such consumers. Stop buying a new phone every year, your current one can easily suit you for the next 10 years. Don't buy a new laptop. Start being cognizant of the influences brand names have on you and try to resist them where possible. Most importantly, we need to strengthen unions and support our local coops. Start being aware of where the money you spend ultimately ends up. </actual-advice> <shill> I'm a libertarian, and I use that in the non-US definition of the word, which is to say I'm an anarcho-syndicalist. Unfortunately anarchism is widely regarded as unrealistic, but if it weren't for the Soviets mucking around in Spain in the 30's, it might be a very different story. What is anarchism? Here's how Noam Chomsky, (the same Chomsky you know from your compilers / CS theory course) describes it: """ Well, anarchism is, in my view, basically a kind of tendency in human thought which shows up in different forms in different circumstances, and has some leading characteristics. Primarily it is a tendency that is suspicious and skeptical of domination, authority, and hierarchy. It seeks structures of hierarchy and domination in human life over the whole range, extending from, say, patriarchal families to, say, imperial systems, and it asks whether those systems are justified. It assumes that the burden of proof for anyone in a position of power and authority lies on them. Their authority is not self-justifying. They have to give a reason for it, a justification. And if they can’t justify that authority and power and control, which is the usual case, then the authority ought to be dismantled and replaced by something more free and just. And, as I understand it, anarchy is just that tendency. It takes different forms at different times. Anarcho-syndicalism is a particular variety of anarchism which was concerned primarily, though not solely, but primarily with control over work, over the work place, over production. It took for granted that working people ought to control their own work, its conditions, [that] they ought to control the enterprises in which they work, along with communities, so they should be associated with one another in free associations, and … democracy of that kind should be the foundational elements of a more general free society. And then, you know, ideas are worked out about how exactly that should manifest itself, but I think that is the core of anarcho-syndicalist thinking. I mean it’s not at all the general image that you described — people running around the streets, you know, breaking store windows — but [anarcho-syndicalism] is a conception of a very organized society, but organized from below by direct participation at every level, with as little control and domination as is feasible, maybe none. """ One big misconception is that anarchism means that there should be no laws, and that murderers should be allowed to wander the streets. What a lot of people don't know is that anarchism, just like communism, was also a victim of the propaganda machine that we now call the red scare. I think that a lot of people in tech, who can directly see how open source killed proprietary software, are the people who are most open to the idea this shift can happen. Anyway, that's just my $0.02. If you made it this far into my comment, give this a read: http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-kind-anarchism-i-believe-and-whats-wrong-libertarians http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-kind-an... And also read On Anarchism by Chomsky, it's fantastic. </shill>

cgag 12y ago

Free people not being able to match the pace of people desperately trying to free themselves from wage slavery doesn't strike me as a great justification of wage slavery. Not that I agree with the premise that capitalism is what drives people to produce things to begin with.

logicchains 12y ago
Are these people trying to desperately free themselves from wage slavery the same people who spend most of their time watching tv, playing games or caring for children nobody forced them to have? If so they don't seem so desperate to me. Generally the people I've met who work hard to develop themselves and develop skills society needs end up doing quite well for themselves, although I admit that as an Australian my experience is probably different from the US. Here we have more socialised education and healthcare, so anyone with motivation can go to college.
- nickysielicki 12y ago
  Most are born into this society and never consider the notion that things could ever be different.
- sk5t 12y ago
  It's interesting that you suppose the AU and US results are likely to be different. As an USian I do not perceive that the system very often fails smart, motivated, hardworking people, healthcare and education regimes notwithstanding.
  - jsankey 12y ago
    Then how do you explain the low socio-economic mobility in the US? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_... The good news is everyone is getting richer (rising tide), the bad news is inequality is increasing and low mobility is nothing to be proud of. Like logicchains I'm Aussie and we fare better at the moment, though we're also starting to head in the wrong direction by these measures.
    - lectrick 12y ago
      Isn't your government incredibly conservative at the moment?
      - jsankey 12y ago
        Yes it is, and if they get their way I believe it will be a disaster for both equality and long term growth here. They are aiming to move education and health to more of a user pays model (which makes no sense given the evidence worldwide) and continue their party's privatisation-by-stealth in both areas. Fortunately they are not very competent and do not have full control of the parliament, so most of their bills have been blocked by minor parties.
        orthecreedence 12y ago
        The scary thing is that the largest players in the private market here financially back (or lobby for) a lot of the shenanigans that happen in the capital...denial of climate change, privatization (or abolishment) of public services/utilities, slashing education, etc etc. The not very competent people who wave snowballs around in congress, send bitchy letters to Iran and Israel, and squawk about #OBAMANET have full corporate sponsorship and the propaganda machine that is our media keeps getting these imbeciles elected. The US is definitely treading water right now. I remain hopeful, but not optimistic.
  - logicchains 12y ago
    From this forum, which is probably my largest source of interaction with Americans, I get the impression that most Americans think life is extremely hard for the lower class there.

nickysielicki 12y ago

* 5 million people dead in the Congo, stealing rare minerals and putting them in your iPhone. * Destroying our earth with a pathetically broad plan for stopping (read: we won't). * We're creating technological systems that pose the greatest threat against freedom ever. * We're killing hundreds of thousands in the middle east because they pose threats to our Saudi oil fields. Yay, productivity. What I'm saying here, is that it doesn't have to be this way. Capitalism drives a population to productivity in the same way meth does: destructively.

pswenson 12y ago
alternative?
- nickysielicki 12y ago
  <actual-advice> I have no good answers for you. If the atrocities above bother you, you can do your part and opt out from the sides of society that requires you to be a part of it. We just need a cultural shift to stop being such consumers. Stop buying a new phone every year, your current one can easily suit you for the next 10 years. Don't buy a new laptop. Start being cognizant of the influences brand names have on you and try to resist them where possible. Most importantly, we need to strengthen unions and support our local coops. Start being aware of where the money you spend ultimately ends up. </actual-advice> <shill> I'm a libertarian, and I use that in the non-US definition of the word, which is to say I'm an anarcho-syndicalist. Unfortunately anarchism is widely regarded as unrealistic, but if it weren't for the Soviets mucking around in Spain in the 30's, it might be a very different story. What is anarchism? Here's how Noam Chomsky, (the same Chomsky you know from your compilers / CS theory course) describes it: """ Well, anarchism is, in my view, basically a kind of tendency in human thought which shows up in different forms in different circumstances, and has some leading characteristics. Primarily it is a tendency that is suspicious and skeptical of domination, authority, and hierarchy. It seeks structures of hierarchy and domination in human life over the whole range, extending from, say, patriarchal families to, say, imperial systems, and it asks whether those systems are justified. It assumes that the burden of proof for anyone in a position of power and authority lies on them. Their authority is not self-justifying. They have to give a reason for it, a justification. And if they can’t justify that authority and power and control, which is the usual case, then the authority ought to be dismantled and replaced by something more free and just. And, as I understand it, anarchy is just that tendency. It takes different forms at different times. Anarcho-syndicalism is a particular variety of anarchism which was concerned primarily, though not solely, but primarily with control over work, over the work place, over production. It took for granted that working people ought to control their own work, its conditions, [that] they ought to control the enterprises in which they work, along with communities, so they should be associated with one another in free associations, and … democracy of that kind should be the foundational elements of a more general free society. And then, you know, ideas are worked out about how exactly that should manifest itself, but I think that is the core of anarcho-syndicalist thinking. I mean it’s not at all the general image that you described — people running around the streets, you know, breaking store windows — but [anarcho-syndicalism] is a conception of a very organized society, but organized from below by direct participation at every level, with as little control and domination as is feasible, maybe none. """ One big misconception is that anarchism means that there should be no laws, and that murderers should be allowed to wander the streets. What a lot of people don't know is that anarchism, just like communism, was also a victim of the propaganda machine that we now call the red scare. I think that a lot of people in tech, who can directly see how open source killed proprietary software, are the people who are most open to the idea this shift can happen. Anyway, that's just my $0.02. If you made it this far into my comment, give this a read: http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-kind-anarchism-i-believe-and-whats-wrong-libertarians http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-kind-an... And also read On Anarchism by Chomsky, it's fantastic. </shill>