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Whoa, whoa, whoa. I was following quite closely when Marco Arment's article was published and the storm erupted around it. Marco's comments have totally been ta

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I was following quite closely when Marco Arment's article was published and the storm erupted around it. Marco's comments have totally been taken out of context here: the reason he regretted publishing the article was not out of fear of Apple primarily but because many publications took it and used it to justify the "Apple is doomed" narrative which Marco personally doesn't agree with. He was quite sad about that because the article was a serious piece highlighting particular problems that need addressing but it was just used as fodder for "This wouldn't have happened if Steve Jobs was alive..." headlines. Whilst I didn't see the particular tweet when it happened, it's pretty clear that Cabel Sasser is also talking about the press in his tweet (note "dramapress"). Whilst elements of this article do seem a bit biased, there are some good points later on which aren't taken out of context. It's a shame that it started out with this.

engendered 12y ago
but because many publications took it and used it to justify the "Apple is doomed" narrative which Marco personally doesn't agree with Show me one. Just one single example. I'll wait. EDIT: Chuckle. A mod bomb on this benign post. Cool. ... You're not going to find one. The hit piece/exaggerated/"doomed" noise is a defensive fiction. Nothing was taken out of context (does anyone actually disagree with the observation that Apple has lost the focus on software quality?). Nothing was exaggerated. If anything the issues with Apple software quality lately have hugely been under-stated: My children all refuse to use the Mac Mini because it is, by far, the most issue-prone device in the house. The iPad now sits on its charger all day. Marco was sad because his words were used by "the other side". It is as simple as that (as others have said, it's a "tribal" mentality). Criticisms are okay if they're kept in house, but make sure you don't let the neighbors hear. Which is an extraordinary situation. I can't imagine a single parallel to this where so many are so fearful of upsetting their tribe of literally tens of millions of people. Maybe in North Korea?
- jusben1369 12y ago
  I gave you an upvote to try and offset the flurry. I think you're both right. My sense was Marco did regret writing it not because of fear of a Black Apple planet but rather because it became a tool for people to attack Apple with "If Marco the fanboi is concerned then wow!" So the original author is misconstruing it by representing it as being fear of Apple. And I think you're right that Marco's exasperation wasn't with the "If Steve Jobs was alive" crowd. He was just taken aback because he unleashed a wave of pent up criticism against Apple from others in the tech community who like Marco are generally very positive towards Apple. It was like he signaled to others that it was time to air grievances that had been building.
- kentt 12y ago
  Why is the post downvoted to hell?
  - engendered 12y ago
    I have had this happen numerous times, and the rapidity of the downvotes really makes me think it's an automated system -- that now that slowbans and hellbans are pretty widely known and rightly reviled, the mods just flag you and periodically you get a rapid downvote barrage. I guess it is supposed to make me feel insecure about my opinion or something.
    - itistoday2 12y ago
      I've been much happier with lobste.rs' voting system than HN's. On Lobsters: 1. All moderation is public information. 2. Who invited who is public information. 3. You need to pick a reason for downvoting something. 4. You can undo a downvote or an upvote. Perhaps because of these properties (or something else), I also enjoy the conversations and community there better. Frankly, I am annoyed that I can't read what your post said without copy/pasting it into a text document. WTH HN? Don't treat us like children. It's obvious his post was downvoted for no good reason (as many posts on HN are). By making them difficult to read you're just making it difficult for others to evaluate even what reason it might have been downvoted for was. (P.S. If you want a Lobsters invite, see my profile.)
      - krapp 12y ago
        For anyone using Firefox with Greasemonkey installed, here's a small userscript that will undo some of HN's passive aggressive BS: https://gist.github.com/kennethrapp/5b5e413220afb93c9c93 https://gist.github.com/kennethrapp/5b5e413220afb93c9c93
      - fr0styMatt2 12y ago
        Yeah it's fking annoying having the comments go to light gray, ESPECIALLY when downvotes are commonly used as a sign of disagreement rather than "this comment is a troll / abusive". I don't understand the rationale for this at all - just make the title of the comment red or something. I'm an adult and mature enough to actually want to read things I might disagree with.
- kaolinite 12y ago
  (For what it's worth I've upvoted your post - not sure why it's been down-voted so much. You definitely made me think and check myself, however having considered, I still feel there's a lot of bad reporting out there. I don't think it's a tribal thing. You made good points though.) Whilst I don't feel like digging through Twitter for links to poor reporting regarding Marco's article, it doesn't take long at all to find some examples of recent poor Apple reporting. Here's Reuters claiming that Apple Watch is a "tough sell" because only 31% of Americans (that's 75 million adults) intend to buy it (a product that they haven't touched yet). It's based on a very small sample size, of course - completely flawed - but that apparently won't stop them writing an article about it. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/13/us-apple-watch-idUSKBN0M92C420150313 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/13/us-apple-watch-idU... That 'study' was then published in many other publications: http://business.financialpost.com/2015/03/16/apple-watch-may-be-a-tough-sell-with-americans-69-not-interested-in-buying-gadget-new-poll-shows/ http://business.financialpost.com/2015/03/16/apple-watch-may... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2993902/Apple-Watch-not-shopping-list-69-pct-Americans-Reuters-poll.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2993902/Apple-Watch-... But that's not all, how about this article from ReadWrite. Apple Watch will disappoint users apparently - not that the author has used one yet. That didn't stop the author from claiming that it's hard to launch apps, unintuitive, etc. http://readwrite.com/2015/03/19/apple-watch-expectations-disappointment http://readwrite.com/2015/03/19/apple-watch-expectations-dis... If that's not enough, how about the NYTimes reckoning that Apple Watch (and other wearables, too, although Apple Watch is mentioned the most frequently) could cause cancer (original headline: "Could wearable computers be as harmful as cigarettes"). http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/19/style/could-wearable-computers-be-as-harmful-as-cigarettes.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/19/style/could-wearable-compu... This isn't a conspiracy. Anti-Apple reporting gets a lot of page views. People click on articles claiming that a massive company is failing more than articles about how a massive company is continuing to do well.
  - engendered 12y ago
    "it doesn't take long at all to find some examples of recent poor Apple reporting" That has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked. Apple is an enormous company. They have enormous influence, and their products are used by the majority of Americans, if not world citizens. Is it really notable that there are negative stories? Is it not exactly that sort of tribal mentality that makes one react to such banal noise? I see a stupid story and move on, but some seem to really hang onto it and see it as some grievous injustice. The other poster is dead on when they say that Marco's words were amplified because he is typically so strongly pro-Apple. But from an outsider that is a problem with Marco's words, not with the perception of them. If indeed you have nothing but praise, you do naturally lose the rational actor perspective. "This isn't a conspiracy. Anti-Apple reporting gets a lot of page views." And so does pro-Apple reporting. We all have a confirmation bias though, so if you're sure everyone is against you, it's going to seem like it is. There are thousands (millions?) of news reports published every single day, and some cynical take on watches, or profit margins, or ipads or bendgate or whatever are in strong competition with stories about Apple taking over the living room (new Apple TV coming out soon!), building cars, taking on Google, releasing the next greatest thing, putting the Swiss all out of work, making more profit than the rest of the universe combined, etc.
- gbanfalvi 12y ago
  Computerworld http://www.computerworld.com/article/2866456/marco-arment-sparks-debate-about-apple-software-quality.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2866456/marco-arment-sp... Fortune http://fortune.com/2015/01/05/how-bad-are-the-bugs-in-apples-software-updates/ http://fortune.com/2015/01/05/how-bad-are-the-bugs-in-apples... BGR http://bgr.com/2015/01/05/marco-arment-mac-ios-software-quality/ http://bgr.com/2015/01/05/marco-arment-mac-ios-software-qual... Economic times/india times http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/programmer-marco-arment-says-apple-ios-quality-declining/articleshow/45772285.cms http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/progra... WSJ http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/01/05/programmer-ignites-debate-with-claim-apple-has-lost-software-touch/ http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/01/05/programmer-ignites-de... ZDNet http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-software-may-be-buggier-but-dont-blame-marketing/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-software-may-be-buggier-b... HuffPo http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/05/marco-arment_n_6416540.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/05/marco-arment_n_6416... This is what he's talking about. He posts a "hey have you noticed apple software is buggier lately?" and loads (43, according to google news) sites post speculative articles about titled something like "have things started to go downhill for apple???" using him as a source. Sure, it's not literally "apple is doomed" right in the title, but exactly the same kind of FUD
  - engendered 12y ago
    Sure, it's not literally "apple is doomed" right in the title, but exactly the same kind of FUD BUT IT ISN'T FUD AT ALL. To make it even more comical, several of those posts are from serious Apple boosters (Philip Elmer-DeWitt might as well wear pom-poms while he writes about Apple). Apple software has had serious quality issues, and it is "FUD" to talk about it? This is just broken thinking. You, in this conversation, are the problem. This notion that any criticism of Apple (such as the fact that they've let quality seriously decline) becomes "FUD" because there is so much defensiveness about Apple. Not one of those demonstrate what he is talking about. None of them are attacks on Apple. None posit that Apple is doomed. They're tech articles, appealing to a tech crowd, that note that software quality has wavered, which is something that is utterly indisputable.
    - 12y ago
elischiff 12y ago
I'm just going to note that the people most frequently mentioning the "Apple is Doomed" narrative are Apple apologists themselves. I discussed this in the previous article: http://www.elischiff.com/blog/2015/3/17/critical-sharks-part-iii-design-fallacies http://www.elischiff.com/blog/2015/3/17/critical-sharks-part... Yes the media distorts things. But that does not mean that it is invalid to say 'this wouldn't have happened under Steve.' Jobs had clear differences from the new leadership. Further, the media's inevitable distortion of stories should not make criticism something regrettable or something to hide in blog posts or podcasts. If the developers in question have legitimate grievances, which they clearly do, then those should be aired accessibly and publicly. Otherwise what's the point of writing them?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- VonGuard 12y ago
  I've just written a piece to back yours up. I'm media, but I'm tech media, so I have a buncha stories in my piece about how tough Apple is to deal with. I've been trying for years to write about CUPS, but Apple owns the guys who write it, and thus, I cannot interview them. Same for LLVM, though there are people outside Apple on that project, at least. I fail to see just what scintillating details about the next iPhone the guy maintaining the Common UNIX Printing System could give me, but Apple sure is convinced he's filled with hot scoops and must be kept from the public at all costs. Apple's number one priority is secrecy. Developers are, like, #20 on that list. Anyway, my piece will be up soon, and I linked to yours, Eli. Great stuff!
  - elischiff 12y ago
    Do be in touch when your post is published.
- albedoa 12y ago
  I'm just going to note that the people most frequently mentioning the "Apple is Doomed" narrative are Apple apologists themselves. I see the claim mirrored in your article, also stated as fact: Strangely enough, the people doing the most service to the narrative of Apple’s impending “doom” are Apple apologists themselves. Is it discussed or supported beyond that? Sorry if I missed it.

engendered 12y ago

but because many publications took it and used it to justify the "Apple is doomed" narrative which Marco personally doesn't agree with Show me one. Just one single example. I'll wait. EDIT: Chuckle. A mod bomb on this benign post. Cool. ... You're not going to find one. The hit piece/exaggerated/"doomed" noise is a defensive fiction. Nothing was taken out of context (does anyone actually disagree with the observation that Apple has lost the focus on software quality?). Nothing was exaggerated. If anything the issues with Apple software quality lately have hugely been under-stated: My children all refuse to use the Mac Mini because it is, by far, the most issue-prone device in the house. The iPad now sits on its charger all day. Marco was sad because his words were used by "the other side". It is as simple as that (as others have said, it's a "tribal" mentality). Criticisms are okay if they're kept in house, but make sure you don't let the neighbors hear. Which is an extraordinary situation. I can't imagine a single parallel to this where so many are so fearful of upsetting their tribe of literally tens of millions of people. Maybe in North Korea?

jusben1369 12y ago
I gave you an upvote to try and offset the flurry. I think you're both right. My sense was Marco did regret writing it not because of fear of a Black Apple planet but rather because it became a tool for people to attack Apple with "If Marco the fanboi is concerned then wow!" So the original author is misconstruing it by representing it as being fear of Apple. And I think you're right that Marco's exasperation wasn't with the "If Steve Jobs was alive" crowd. He was just taken aback because he unleashed a wave of pent up criticism against Apple from others in the tech community who like Marco are generally very positive towards Apple. It was like he signaled to others that it was time to air grievances that had been building.
kentt 12y ago
Why is the post downvoted to hell?
- engendered 12y ago
  I have had this happen numerous times, and the rapidity of the downvotes really makes me think it's an automated system -- that now that slowbans and hellbans are pretty widely known and rightly reviled, the mods just flag you and periodically you get a rapid downvote barrage. I guess it is supposed to make me feel insecure about my opinion or something.
  - itistoday2 12y ago
    I've been much happier with lobste.rs' voting system than HN's. On Lobsters: 1. All moderation is public information. 2. Who invited who is public information. 3. You need to pick a reason for downvoting something. 4. You can undo a downvote or an upvote. Perhaps because of these properties (or something else), I also enjoy the conversations and community there better. Frankly, I am annoyed that I can't read what your post said without copy/pasting it into a text document. WTH HN? Don't treat us like children. It's obvious his post was downvoted for no good reason (as many posts on HN are). By making them difficult to read you're just making it difficult for others to evaluate even what reason it might have been downvoted for was. (P.S. If you want a Lobsters invite, see my profile.)
    - krapp 12y ago
      For anyone using Firefox with Greasemonkey installed, here's a small userscript that will undo some of HN's passive aggressive BS: https://gist.github.com/kennethrapp/5b5e413220afb93c9c93 https://gist.github.com/kennethrapp/5b5e413220afb93c9c93
    - fr0styMatt2 12y ago
      Yeah it's fking annoying having the comments go to light gray, ESPECIALLY when downvotes are commonly used as a sign of disagreement rather than "this comment is a troll / abusive". I don't understand the rationale for this at all - just make the title of the comment red or something. I'm an adult and mature enough to actually want to read things I might disagree with.
kaolinite 12y ago
(For what it's worth I've upvoted your post - not sure why it's been down-voted so much. You definitely made me think and check myself, however having considered, I still feel there's a lot of bad reporting out there. I don't think it's a tribal thing. You made good points though.) Whilst I don't feel like digging through Twitter for links to poor reporting regarding Marco's article, it doesn't take long at all to find some examples of recent poor Apple reporting. Here's Reuters claiming that Apple Watch is a "tough sell" because only 31% of Americans (that's 75 million adults) intend to buy it (a product that they haven't touched yet). It's based on a very small sample size, of course - completely flawed - but that apparently won't stop them writing an article about it. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/13/us-apple-watch-idUSKBN0M92C420150313 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/13/us-apple-watch-idU... That 'study' was then published in many other publications: http://business.financialpost.com/2015/03/16/apple-watch-may-be-a-tough-sell-with-americans-69-not-interested-in-buying-gadget-new-poll-shows/ http://business.financialpost.com/2015/03/16/apple-watch-may... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2993902/Apple-Watch-not-shopping-list-69-pct-Americans-Reuters-poll.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2993902/Apple-Watch-... But that's not all, how about this article from ReadWrite. Apple Watch will disappoint users apparently - not that the author has used one yet. That didn't stop the author from claiming that it's hard to launch apps, unintuitive, etc. http://readwrite.com/2015/03/19/apple-watch-expectations-disappointment http://readwrite.com/2015/03/19/apple-watch-expectations-dis... If that's not enough, how about the NYTimes reckoning that Apple Watch (and other wearables, too, although Apple Watch is mentioned the most frequently) could cause cancer (original headline: "Could wearable computers be as harmful as cigarettes"). http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/19/style/could-wearable-computers-be-as-harmful-as-cigarettes.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/19/style/could-wearable-compu... This isn't a conspiracy. Anti-Apple reporting gets a lot of page views. People click on articles claiming that a massive company is failing more than articles about how a massive company is continuing to do well.
- engendered 12y ago
  "it doesn't take long at all to find some examples of recent poor Apple reporting" That has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked. Apple is an enormous company. They have enormous influence, and their products are used by the majority of Americans, if not world citizens. Is it really notable that there are negative stories? Is it not exactly that sort of tribal mentality that makes one react to such banal noise? I see a stupid story and move on, but some seem to really hang onto it and see it as some grievous injustice. The other poster is dead on when they say that Marco's words were amplified because he is typically so strongly pro-Apple. But from an outsider that is a problem with Marco's words, not with the perception of them. If indeed you have nothing but praise, you do naturally lose the rational actor perspective. "This isn't a conspiracy. Anti-Apple reporting gets a lot of page views." And so does pro-Apple reporting. We all have a confirmation bias though, so if you're sure everyone is against you, it's going to seem like it is. There are thousands (millions?) of news reports published every single day, and some cynical take on watches, or profit margins, or ipads or bendgate or whatever are in strong competition with stories about Apple taking over the living room (new Apple TV coming out soon!), building cars, taking on Google, releasing the next greatest thing, putting the Swiss all out of work, making more profit than the rest of the universe combined, etc.
gbanfalvi 12y ago
Computerworld http://www.computerworld.com/article/2866456/marco-arment-sparks-debate-about-apple-software-quality.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2866456/marco-arment-sp... Fortune http://fortune.com/2015/01/05/how-bad-are-the-bugs-in-apples-software-updates/ http://fortune.com/2015/01/05/how-bad-are-the-bugs-in-apples... BGR http://bgr.com/2015/01/05/marco-arment-mac-ios-software-quality/ http://bgr.com/2015/01/05/marco-arment-mac-ios-software-qual... Economic times/india times http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/programmer-marco-arment-says-apple-ios-quality-declining/articleshow/45772285.cms http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/progra... WSJ http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/01/05/programmer-ignites-debate-with-claim-apple-has-lost-software-touch/ http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/01/05/programmer-ignites-de... ZDNet http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-software-may-be-buggier-but-dont-blame-marketing/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-software-may-be-buggier-b... HuffPo http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/05/marco-arment_n_6416540.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/05/marco-arment_n_6416... This is what he's talking about. He posts a "hey have you noticed apple software is buggier lately?" and loads (43, according to google news) sites post speculative articles about titled something like "have things started to go downhill for apple???" using him as a source. Sure, it's not literally "apple is doomed" right in the title, but exactly the same kind of FUD
- engendered 12y ago
  Sure, it's not literally "apple is doomed" right in the title, but exactly the same kind of FUD BUT IT ISN'T FUD AT ALL. To make it even more comical, several of those posts are from serious Apple boosters (Philip Elmer-DeWitt might as well wear pom-poms while he writes about Apple). Apple software has had serious quality issues, and it is "FUD" to talk about it? This is just broken thinking. You, in this conversation, are the problem. This notion that any criticism of Apple (such as the fact that they've let quality seriously decline) becomes "FUD" because there is so much defensiveness about Apple. Not one of those demonstrate what he is talking about. None of them are attacks on Apple. None posit that Apple is doomed. They're tech articles, appealing to a tech crowd, that note that software quality has wavered, which is something that is utterly indisputable.
  - 12y ago

elischiff 12y ago

I'm just going to note that the people most frequently mentioning the "Apple is Doomed" narrative are Apple apologists themselves. I discussed this in the previous article: http://www.elischiff.com/blog/2015/3/17/critical-sharks-part-iii-design-fallacies http://www.elischiff.com/blog/2015/3/17/critical-sharks-part... Yes the media distorts things. But that does not mean that it is invalid to say 'this wouldn't have happened under Steve.' Jobs had clear differences from the new leadership. Further, the media's inevitable distortion of stories should not make criticism something regrettable or something to hide in blog posts or podcasts. If the developers in question have legitimate grievances, which they clearly do, then those should be aired accessibly and publicly. Otherwise what's the point of writing them?

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
VonGuard 12y ago
I've just written a piece to back yours up. I'm media, but I'm tech media, so I have a buncha stories in my piece about how tough Apple is to deal with. I've been trying for years to write about CUPS, but Apple owns the guys who write it, and thus, I cannot interview them. Same for LLVM, though there are people outside Apple on that project, at least. I fail to see just what scintillating details about the next iPhone the guy maintaining the Common UNIX Printing System could give me, but Apple sure is convinced he's filled with hot scoops and must be kept from the public at all costs. Apple's number one priority is secrecy. Developers are, like, #20 on that list. Anyway, my piece will be up soon, and I linked to yours, Eli. Great stuff!
- elischiff 12y ago
  Do be in touch when your post is published.
albedoa 12y ago
I'm just going to note that the people most frequently mentioning the "Apple is Doomed" narrative are Apple apologists themselves. I see the claim mirrored in your article, also stated as fact: Strangely enough, the people doing the most service to the narrative of Apple’s impending “doom” are Apple apologists themselves. Is it discussed or supported beyond that? Sorry if I missed it.