7 ms·

Correct, reproducible, fast builds for everyone not running Windows

by latkin 12y ago

izacus 12y ago
Not really sure why this is getting downvoted - it's kind of an important detail when choosing a build system if you have to do multiplatform deployment.
- istvan__ 12y ago
  I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with the average population being biased.
- melling 12y ago
  I didn't downvote him but it sounds like "he's driving angry". He does work for that "evil" company in Redmond. :-). Maybe he can help make F# a great cross-platform language and increase the goodwill? Microsoft did an incredible job with F# but it really only runs well on Windows.
  - makeitsuckless 12y ago
    If he works for MS he has zero right to even be mildly annoyed, since we have for decades been living in a world where "only runs on Windows" isn't even in the small print.
    - saidajigumi 12y ago
      I've run into some (but def. not all) current and former MS folks who carry this ironic shoulder-chip. One such indignantly complained about a major open-source project's janky Windows support something like "well, that's just because they choose not to support the platform!" I found this really interesting, as after a bit of conversation, the speaker was clearly unaware of how MS' technical and business models around Windows have impeded open source work. A for-pay operating system with a profit-center development toolchain presents a very large barrier to Unix-centric OSS projects. Not to mention the numerous technical impedance mismatches between the $unix and Windows worlds. (And these days we have tools like libuv to help with that, but still.)
  - BinaryIdiot 12y ago
    But they're already working on doing that.
    - melling 12y ago
      I didn't say they weren't. I imagine the project needs lots of help. Is there an ETA? Will the ports be kept in sync with the Windows versions so we don't need to wait years for updates? It's a lot of work.
      - BinaryIdiot 12y ago
        > Is there an ETA? I think their goal was a year for everything under .Net to get ported but I don't know off hand. You can already use it via Mono if you wanted to play with it today. > Will the ports be kept in sync with the Windows versions so we don't need to wait years for updates? It's all being opened sourced. Every week Microsoft open sources more of their .Net platform and language tools. It will be compilable on all platforms. So yes.
        tacticus 12y ago
        And every court case fights to close off other things.
  - MichaelGG 12y ago
    What particular problems on non-Windows do you have with F#? I've been running F# applications in telecom, in production, on Mono, for several years. F# doesn't really seem to be the factor there at all, it's just general .NET support. In fact, F# can do a bit better than C#, as F# actually includes a static linker.
    - melling 12y ago
      Strange, most blogs that I've read discuss the pain involved. http://spin.atomicobject.com/2014/06/06/f-sharp-mono-unix/ http://spin.atomicobject.com/2014/06/06/f-sharp-mono-unix/ I guess it's the same with any new product or language: when there are a lot more great testimonials than cries of pain, then it's actually safe to use that product.
      - MichaelGG 12y ago
        Those complaints mostly seem to be about the developer experience on Mac, which, yeah might suck. I use VS + vim, build on Windows, then copy over to Linux for deployment. The biggest issue is with complicated frameworks, like ASP.NET, since there could be all sorts of runtime things missing. Fortunately with MS's new open source kick, this should be a thing of the past relatively soon,
        melling 12y ago
        So, you just told me to buy a Windows machine. Kind of funny because our little subthread started because the Microsoft F# developer didn't want to be told to buy a Linux or Mac. The world we're all looking for is one where we'd all like to mix and match our software as much as possible, and not be told to buy a different computer.
        MichaelGG 12y ago
        Fair enough; I went off track just about running (executing) F# code.
krschultz 12y ago
s/not running Windows/not running Windows or refusing to install a free VM/ 5 or 6 years ago I had to have Windows to run CAD software, but I found it easier to have a virtualbox install w/ Ubuntu in it for software development than trying to write code on Windows. The performance was good enough an the usability was pretty good. I imagine it has only gotten better since then.
- CurtHagenlocher 12y ago
  Using a VM would only work if the individual build tools themselves run under Unix. That said, no open source project owes anybody anything.
  - ambrop7 12y ago
    Not quite. You can map shared folders to the guest and edit the code in the VM with your favorite editor, but build it on Windows.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  One company I work with has a firewall of a certain brand. It only works with windows or a mac, you can't connect to it from a command line it needs some stupid app that you download and install just to make a VPN connection. Not having a unix specific build system work on windows seems to be pretty much the expected behaviour. As opposed to a firewall that runs linux internally requiring windows or OS/X to talk to it...
  - vacri 12y ago
    I struggled with Cisco AnyConnect's linux client until I eventually found the open-source OpenConnect replacement. The Cisco website even detected that I ran linux and offered the linux client for download, whereupon it dutifully pushed the Windows client... The crappy linux client I did have had to come from our cloud vendor. OpenConnect 'just worked', thankfully.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
mellery451 12y ago
a good point - which I why I will be sticking with CMake for my cross-platform build needs.
spankalee 12y ago
Or Plan 9, Haiku, OS/2, Amiga OS...
EricBurnett 12y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9257187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9257187 If you've got the expertise to add it, sounds like it would be welcomed.
cbhl 12y ago
While running bazel isn't supported on Windows, you might be able to generate Windows binaries by cross-compiling from Linux.
jacquesm 12y ago
Convince your employer to ship a half decent unix environment with its OS and it will run on windows too. It's mostly a choice by microsoft to ship a half-baked command line interface with its products, you can't blame google for that.
- NeutronBoy 12y ago
  By 'half-baked' you mean 'not * nix compatible' command line. Powershell is amazing.
  - tacos 12y ago
    I'm a Microsoft fanboy and Powershell is bad Python. How 'bout we meet in the middle and y'all make the changes the Cygwin guys need? And hey, where'd that POSIX subsystem go? Finally got C99 support almost shipped now how 'bout you reverse that other horrible decision, too?
- davidgerard 12y ago
  How's it go with Cygwin or mingw?
  - lelandbatey 12y ago
    I just want to boost big time for Cygwin, it really is amazing how much it improves the experience of using a Windows computer. It gives me the tools I want/need (gcc and python) and the programs I write run without modification in Cygwin, Linux and OS X! Also, the default terminal emulator that comes with Cygwin, called MinTTY, is fantastic. It doesn't have the flashy features of many native Linux clients, but it has all the basic features one could want (full color support, nice fonts, very durable, no 'gotchas'). The only problem is that support outside of C-based languages is touch-and-go. Mainline Python works flawlessly since it's implemented in C, and all it's tools also work flawlessly (virtualenv, numpy, scipy, matplotlib, django, flask, etc), but other languages like Go or Rust don't really support Cygwin. I'm unaware how well other languages are supported (e.g. Ruby). So Cygwin will definitely "give you that Unix feeling" on a Windows machine, but it can't always replace a virtual machine.
tkubacki 12y ago
With newer Windows servers you can use HyperV to run *nix apps
sangnoir 12y ago
...Yet. It is open source: you are welcome to port it to Windows and I'm sure they would be happy to accept your patch.

Correct, reproducible, fast builds for everyone not running Windows

by latkin 12y ago

Correct, reproducible, fast builds for everyone not running Windows

Not really sure why this is getting downvoted - it's kind of an important detail when choosing a build system if you have to do multiplatform deployment.

istvan__ 12y ago
I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with the average population being biased.
melling 12y ago
I didn't downvote him but it sounds like "he's driving angry". He does work for that "evil" company in Redmond. :-). Maybe he can help make F# a great cross-platform language and increase the goodwill? Microsoft did an incredible job with F# but it really only runs well on Windows.
- makeitsuckless 12y ago
  If he works for MS he has zero right to even be mildly annoyed, since we have for decades been living in a world where "only runs on Windows" isn't even in the small print.
  - saidajigumi 12y ago
    I've run into some (but def. not all) current and former MS folks who carry this ironic shoulder-chip. One such indignantly complained about a major open-source project's janky Windows support something like "well, that's just because they choose not to support the platform!" I found this really interesting, as after a bit of conversation, the speaker was clearly unaware of how MS' technical and business models around Windows have impeded open source work. A for-pay operating system with a profit-center development toolchain presents a very large barrier to Unix-centric OSS projects. Not to mention the numerous technical impedance mismatches between the $unix and Windows worlds. (And these days we have tools like libuv to help with that, but still.)
- BinaryIdiot 12y ago
  But they're already working on doing that.
  - melling 12y ago
    I didn't say they weren't. I imagine the project needs lots of help. Is there an ETA? Will the ports be kept in sync with the Windows versions so we don't need to wait years for updates? It's a lot of work.
    - BinaryIdiot 12y ago
      > Is there an ETA? I think their goal was a year for everything under .Net to get ported but I don't know off hand. You can already use it via Mono if you wanted to play with it today. > Will the ports be kept in sync with the Windows versions so we don't need to wait years for updates? It's all being opened sourced. Every week Microsoft open sources more of their .Net platform and language tools. It will be compilable on all platforms. So yes.
      - tacticus 12y ago
        And every court case fights to close off other things.
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  What particular problems on non-Windows do you have with F#? I've been running F# applications in telecom, in production, on Mono, for several years. F# doesn't really seem to be the factor there at all, it's just general .NET support. In fact, F# can do a bit better than C#, as F# actually includes a static linker.
  - melling 12y ago
    Strange, most blogs that I've read discuss the pain involved. http://spin.atomicobject.com/2014/06/06/f-sharp-mono-unix/ http://spin.atomicobject.com/2014/06/06/f-sharp-mono-unix/ I guess it's the same with any new product or language: when there are a lot more great testimonials than cries of pain, then it's actually safe to use that product.
    - MichaelGG 12y ago
      Those complaints mostly seem to be about the developer experience on Mac, which, yeah might suck. I use VS + vim, build on Windows, then copy over to Linux for deployment. The biggest issue is with complicated frameworks, like ASP.NET, since there could be all sorts of runtime things missing. Fortunately with MS's new open source kick, this should be a thing of the past relatively soon,
      - melling 12y ago
        So, you just told me to buy a Windows machine. Kind of funny because our little subthread started because the Microsoft F# developer didn't want to be told to buy a Linux or Mac. The world we're all looking for is one where we'd all like to mix and match our software as much as possible, and not be told to buy a different computer.
        MichaelGG 12y ago
        Fair enough; I went off track just about running (executing) F# code.

krschultz 12y ago

s/not running Windows/not running Windows or refusing to install a free VM/ 5 or 6 years ago I had to have Windows to run CAD software, but I found it easier to have a virtualbox install w/ Ubuntu in it for software development than trying to write code on Windows. The performance was good enough an the usability was pretty good. I imagine it has only gotten better since then.

CurtHagenlocher 12y ago
Using a VM would only work if the individual build tools themselves run under Unix. That said, no open source project owes anybody anything.
- ambrop7 12y ago
  Not quite. You can map shared folders to the guest and edit the code in the VM with your favorite editor, but build it on Windows.
jacquesm 12y ago
One company I work with has a firewall of a certain brand. It only works with windows or a mac, you can't connect to it from a command line it needs some stupid app that you download and install just to make a VPN connection. Not having a unix specific build system work on windows seems to be pretty much the expected behaviour. As opposed to a firewall that runs linux internally requiring windows or OS/X to talk to it...
- vacri 12y ago
  I struggled with Cisco AnyConnect's linux client until I eventually found the open-source OpenConnect replacement. The Cisco website even detected that I ran linux and offered the linux client for download, whereupon it dutifully pushed the Windows client... The crappy linux client I did have had to come from our cloud vendor. OpenConnect 'just worked', thankfully.
  - jacquesm 12y ago

mellery451 12y ago

a good point - which I why I will be sticking with CMake for my cross-platform build needs.

spankalee 12y ago

Or Plan 9, Haiku, OS/2, Amiga OS...

EricBurnett 12y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9257187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9257187 If you've got the expertise to add it, sounds like it would be welcomed.

cbhl 12y ago

While running bazel isn't supported on Windows, you might be able to generate Windows binaries by cross-compiling from Linux.

jacquesm 12y ago

Convince your employer to ship a half decent unix environment with its OS and it will run on windows too. It's mostly a choice by microsoft to ship a half-baked command line interface with its products, you can't blame google for that.

NeutronBoy 12y ago
By 'half-baked' you mean 'not * nix compatible' command line. Powershell is amazing.
- tacos 12y ago
  I'm a Microsoft fanboy and Powershell is bad Python. How 'bout we meet in the middle and y'all make the changes the Cygwin guys need? And hey, where'd that POSIX subsystem go? Finally got C99 support almost shipped now how 'bout you reverse that other horrible decision, too?
davidgerard 12y ago
How's it go with Cygwin or mingw?
- lelandbatey 12y ago
  I just want to boost big time for Cygwin, it really is amazing how much it improves the experience of using a Windows computer. It gives me the tools I want/need (gcc and python) and the programs I write run without modification in Cygwin, Linux and OS X! Also, the default terminal emulator that comes with Cygwin, called MinTTY, is fantastic. It doesn't have the flashy features of many native Linux clients, but it has all the basic features one could want (full color support, nice fonts, very durable, no 'gotchas'). The only problem is that support outside of C-based languages is touch-and-go. Mainline Python works flawlessly since it's implemented in C, and all it's tools also work flawlessly (virtualenv, numpy, scipy, matplotlib, django, flask, etc), but other languages like Go or Rust don't really support Cygwin. I'm unaware how well other languages are supported (e.g. Ruby). So Cygwin will definitely "give you that Unix feeling" on a Windows machine, but it can't always replace a virtual machine.

tkubacki 12y ago

With newer Windows servers you can use HyperV to run *nix apps

sangnoir 12y ago

...Yet. It is open source: you are welcome to port it to Windows and I'm sure they would be happy to accept your patch.