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More correct. It really bugs me that software engineers claim that they're "overpaid" at $120k. Now, $120k isn't poor by any stretch of the imagination, not ev

More correct. It really bugs me that software engineers claim that they're "overpaid" at $120k. Now, $120k isn't poor by any stretch of the imagination, not even in New York or San Francisco. For a talented entry-level programmer, it's about fair. We're not exactly Mr. Moneybags, though. We work a lot harder than most people in technology, and while some of us get a decent payout (those who are decent negotiators) there are many who are terrible at representing their interests, and they bring the whole market down. We have a tendency to negotiate against ourselves and it hurts us. Right now, we're still able to get fair-ish salaries in a booming market, but we (as a tribe) get so little in terms of equity, cultural control, autonomy, and general respect, compared to what we could. Many programmers still have to deal with "user stories" and "Scrum tickets" when they have 5+ years of experience! That's fucking nuts. This is supposed to be an R&D job in which we advance the state of human knowledge, technology, automation and processes. That doesn't just hurt us. It hurts society because a bunch of self-promoting charlatans come in, get those VC bucks, and make Snapchats and Clinkles when we could be doing so much more.

reitzensteinm 12y ago
Sometimes when my current project isn't doing well I have dark days where I explore my backup plan. Thinking about which niche to master and what content marketing to do to pull in $200 an hour, kicking myself for missed opportunities, wishing I'd done things differently so I wouldn't be faced with such an unsavoury prospect as working for someone else... And then I pinch myself. Because you know what? We have it fucking easy. Other people do real work for a living and make a tenth as much as the potential of most here, and that's just in the same country. You can't have it both ways. We are overpaid by the same free market that you do hastily criticise, for exactly the same reason our managers and VCs are. You want to complain about them? Then complain about us. We aren't special snowflakes fighting for truth and honour, we are tradesmen settling our services for as much cash as we can get away with. And business is booming. I like your posts, mainly because nobody else here is really supplying the same viewport, but your tendency to rationalise away an us and them attitude is a bit disturbing to me, like you're arguing from self interest rather than consistent philosophy.
- kyllo 12y ago
  "We aren't special snowflakes fighting for truth and honour, we are tradesmen settling our services for as much cash as we can get away with" That seems to align pretty closely with what michaelochurch is saying--except he's saying that we're settling for less than we could get away with. The thrust of his argument is that we shouldn't sell ourselves short. We should stand up for ourselves, recognize the value our work creates, and negotiate accordingly for a bigger share of the rewards. He's pointing out a cultural problem with software developers, who accept lower pay and poorer working conditions than we otherwise would because we are "passionate" about our work and lack the social skills and confidence to stick up for our own best interests. Calling ourselves "overpaid nerds" (even jokingly) doesn't align with that goal at all.
  - nostrademons 12y ago
    There are programmers that negotiate exactly for the value that their work creates. They own their own business, or they're contractors (which basically amounts to owning your own business). Pick the right industry, have decent communication skills and a track record of delivering projects on time, and you can easily make a half mil a year or so. When you take an employee position for a quarter of that, a large portion of what you're doing is reapportioning risk. Your employer gets to keep all the surplus value of the work you do - and in exchange, they bear all the risk if the product fails entirely, as many software projects do.
    - kyllo 12y ago
      You're right that consultants and contractors earn more money because they assume more risk. I don't think that contradicts anything I said though. I think a lot of FTE programmers earn less than they could earn (still as FTEs), purely for lack of negotiating skills.
- mej10 12y ago
  I don't get your point. So, because software developers make a decent living means they should just be happy with that, even though it doesn't compare to the value that they actually create?

reitzensteinm 12y ago

Sometimes when my current project isn't doing well I have dark days where I explore my backup plan. Thinking about which niche to master and what content marketing to do to pull in $200 an hour, kicking myself for missed opportunities, wishing I'd done things differently so I wouldn't be faced with such an unsavoury prospect as working for someone else... And then I pinch myself. Because you know what? We have it fucking easy. Other people do real work for a living and make a tenth as much as the potential of most here, and that's just in the same country. You can't have it both ways. We are overpaid by the same free market that you do hastily criticise, for exactly the same reason our managers and VCs are. You want to complain about them? Then complain about us. We aren't special snowflakes fighting for truth and honour, we are tradesmen settling our services for as much cash as we can get away with. And business is booming. I like your posts, mainly because nobody else here is really supplying the same viewport, but your tendency to rationalise away an us and them attitude is a bit disturbing to me, like you're arguing from self interest rather than consistent philosophy.

kyllo 12y ago
"We aren't special snowflakes fighting for truth and honour, we are tradesmen settling our services for as much cash as we can get away with" That seems to align pretty closely with what michaelochurch is saying--except he's saying that we're settling for less than we could get away with. The thrust of his argument is that we shouldn't sell ourselves short. We should stand up for ourselves, recognize the value our work creates, and negotiate accordingly for a bigger share of the rewards. He's pointing out a cultural problem with software developers, who accept lower pay and poorer working conditions than we otherwise would because we are "passionate" about our work and lack the social skills and confidence to stick up for our own best interests. Calling ourselves "overpaid nerds" (even jokingly) doesn't align with that goal at all.
- nostrademons 12y ago
  There are programmers that negotiate exactly for the value that their work creates. They own their own business, or they're contractors (which basically amounts to owning your own business). Pick the right industry, have decent communication skills and a track record of delivering projects on time, and you can easily make a half mil a year or so. When you take an employee position for a quarter of that, a large portion of what you're doing is reapportioning risk. Your employer gets to keep all the surplus value of the work you do - and in exchange, they bear all the risk if the product fails entirely, as many software projects do.
  - kyllo 12y ago
    You're right that consultants and contractors earn more money because they assume more risk. I don't think that contradicts anything I said though. I think a lot of FTE programmers earn less than they could earn (still as FTEs), purely for lack of negotiating skills.
mej10 12y ago
I don't get your point. So, because software developers make a decent living means they should just be happy with that, even though it doesn't compare to the value that they actually create?