7 ms·

Rust for Clojurists

83 points by panic 12y ago

blunte 12y ago
This probably won't make me switch to Rust any time soon, but it was a very entertaining (and enlightening) read.
Dewie 12y ago
Weird intro.
siscia 12y ago
> Many people try to compare Rust to Go, but this is flawed. Go is an ancient board game that emphasizes strategy. Rust is more appropriately compared to Chess, a board game focused on low-level tactics. Clojure, with its high-level purview, is a better analogy to the enduring game of stones. Just for this is worth reading... Nice intro anyway, but nothing to enlightenment... I already knew a little of Rust and the article didn't add much... Well written thought...
- whoisthemachine 12y ago
  Yeah the tongue-in-cheek humor in this article is pretty good.
kyllo 12y ago
Users of Lisp dialects like Clojure are certainly fond of their macros, as there is a tremendous power, simplicity, and hubristic feeling of personal superiority they afford due to their homoiconic syntax. Guilty as charged, hah.
edem 12y ago
I believe that "Clojurian" is the correct term for most Clojurians (including myself) but correct me if I'm wrong. Fine article though!
michaelochurch 12y ago
OP, if you're reading: I understand that you want a humorous tone, but could you please fix this? You're in an industry reaping disproportionate benefit from loose money policies, leading to a trend-chasing culture of overpaid nerds making web apps. You feel guilty about this, but there is nothing you can do about it because you have no other talents that a rational person would pay you for. The misperception that we're "overpaid" is a dangerous one. It's one that we have to fight. We're not overpaid. If anything, most of us are underpaid, considering that nontechnical VPs working 11-to-3 make 3 times as much as we do, and that people who inherit the family connections to become founders often get 100 times as much equity. I don't think we're catastrophically underpaid. I think we're much less underpaid and abused than the rest of the Former Middle class. I'm sure that this was an attempt at humor, and it's easy to consider ourselves "overpaid" when we consider the frivolity that's common in our industry right now, but maybe underutilized is a better word. This idea that programmers are overpaid right now is one that we have to fight with everything that we've got, because that's what the Bad Guys want us (and everyone, but especially the government, so they can abuse the H1-B program) to think and it's not true.
- oldmanjay 12y ago
  Out of curiosity, do you feel like bringing in some class animosity (your strawman VP) makes your point more obviously correct or more obviously self-serving?
  - michaelochurch 12y ago
    More correct. It really bugs me that software engineers claim that they're "overpaid" at $120k. Now, $120k isn't poor by any stretch of the imagination, not even in New York or San Francisco. For a talented entry-level programmer, it's about fair. We're not exactly Mr. Moneybags, though. We work a lot harder than most people in technology, and while some of us get a decent payout (those who are decent negotiators) there are many who are terrible at representing their interests, and they bring the whole market down. We have a tendency to negotiate against ourselves and it hurts us. Right now, we're still able to get fair-ish salaries in a booming market, but we (as a tribe) get so little in terms of equity, cultural control, autonomy, and general respect, compared to what we could. Many programmers still have to deal with "user stories" and "Scrum tickets" when they have 5+ years of experience! That's fucking nuts. This is supposed to be an R&D job in which we advance the state of human knowledge, technology, automation and processes. That doesn't just hurt us. It hurts society because a bunch of self-promoting charlatans come in, get those VC bucks, and make Snapchats and Clinkles when we could be doing so much more.
PopsiclePete 12y ago
I really like Rust so far. I have no idea how to create anything useful with it, since every library seems to be in flux right now, but the way the language has stabilized, it's....nice! This feels like a modern language, it feels like you can be productive, it feels it might be huge. It's got an uphill battle though, and it's definitely more chaotic than a language like Go, which has had pretty good API/lib stability for years now, even if it's technically a weaker language. Will be interesting to see how things progress.
ecolak 12y ago
Appreciate the article and the similarities that you point out between Rust and Clojure but I would not say syntax is one of them.
TheMagicHorsey 12y ago
I always confuse Rust and Racket. This post did not help. Thought OP was going to compare Clojure and Racket. Why would you compare Rust and Clojure ... LOL!

Rust for Clojurists

83 points by panic 12y ago

blunte 12y ago

This probably won't make me switch to Rust any time soon, but it was a very entertaining (and enlightening) read.

Dewie 12y ago

Weird intro.

siscia 12y ago

> Many people try to compare Rust to Go, but this is flawed. Go is an ancient board game that emphasizes strategy. Rust is more appropriately compared to Chess, a board game focused on low-level tactics. Clojure, with its high-level purview, is a better analogy to the enduring game of stones. Just for this is worth reading... Nice intro anyway, but nothing to enlightenment... I already knew a little of Rust and the article didn't add much... Well written thought...

whoisthemachine 12y ago
Yeah the tongue-in-cheek humor in this article is pretty good.

kyllo 12y ago

Users of Lisp dialects like Clojure are certainly fond of their macros, as there is a tremendous power, simplicity, and hubristic feeling of personal superiority they afford due to their homoiconic syntax. Guilty as charged, hah.

edem 12y ago

I believe that "Clojurian" is the correct term for most Clojurians (including myself) but correct me if I'm wrong. Fine article though!

michaelochurch 12y ago

OP, if you're reading: I understand that you want a humorous tone, but could you please fix this? You're in an industry reaping disproportionate benefit from loose money policies, leading to a trend-chasing culture of overpaid nerds making web apps. You feel guilty about this, but there is nothing you can do about it because you have no other talents that a rational person would pay you for. The misperception that we're "overpaid" is a dangerous one. It's one that we have to fight. We're not overpaid. If anything, most of us are underpaid, considering that nontechnical VPs working 11-to-3 make 3 times as much as we do, and that people who inherit the family connections to become founders often get 100 times as much equity. I don't think we're catastrophically underpaid. I think we're much less underpaid and abused than the rest of the Former Middle class. I'm sure that this was an attempt at humor, and it's easy to consider ourselves "overpaid" when we consider the frivolity that's common in our industry right now, but maybe underutilized is a better word. This idea that programmers are overpaid right now is one that we have to fight with everything that we've got, because that's what the Bad Guys want us (and everyone, but especially the government, so they can abuse the H1-B program) to think and it's not true.

oldmanjay 12y ago
Out of curiosity, do you feel like bringing in some class animosity (your strawman VP) makes your point more obviously correct or more obviously self-serving?
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  More correct. It really bugs me that software engineers claim that they're "overpaid" at $120k. Now, $120k isn't poor by any stretch of the imagination, not even in New York or San Francisco. For a talented entry-level programmer, it's about fair. We're not exactly Mr. Moneybags, though. We work a lot harder than most people in technology, and while some of us get a decent payout (those who are decent negotiators) there are many who are terrible at representing their interests, and they bring the whole market down. We have a tendency to negotiate against ourselves and it hurts us. Right now, we're still able to get fair-ish salaries in a booming market, but we (as a tribe) get so little in terms of equity, cultural control, autonomy, and general respect, compared to what we could. Many programmers still have to deal with "user stories" and "Scrum tickets" when they have 5+ years of experience! That's fucking nuts. This is supposed to be an R&D job in which we advance the state of human knowledge, technology, automation and processes. That doesn't just hurt us. It hurts society because a bunch of self-promoting charlatans come in, get those VC bucks, and make Snapchats and Clinkles when we could be doing so much more.

PopsiclePete 12y ago

I really like Rust so far. I have no idea how to create anything useful with it, since every library seems to be in flux right now, but the way the language has stabilized, it's....nice! This feels like a modern language, it feels like you can be productive, it feels it might be huge. It's got an uphill battle though, and it's definitely more chaotic than a language like Go, which has had pretty good API/lib stability for years now, even if it's technically a weaker language. Will be interesting to see how things progress.

ecolak 12y ago

Appreciate the article and the similarities that you point out between Rust and Clojure but I would not say syntax is one of them.

TheMagicHorsey 12y ago

I always confuse Rust and Racket. This post did not help. Thought OP was going to compare Clojure and Racket. Why would you compare Rust and Clojure ... LOL!