4 ms·

> Reference is a long-established term, and using it to refer to C pointers is typically considered incorrect. I am not confused, I disagree. > In addition, p

> Reference is a long-established term, and using it to refer to C pointers is typically considered incorrect. I am not confused, I disagree. > In addition, pass-by-reference and pass-by-value are very useful terms for anyone interested in accurately speaking about and understanding what will happen when they run the program they write. The terms would be useful if people agreed on their meaning (they do not) and if languages actually followed one way or the other consistently (they do not). That is the very reason this thread exists. If you wish to accurately speak about what will happen, then speak about it. Describe what actually happens, instead of spending your time arguing about which round hole the square peg fits in better. > There are people who consider accuracy and understanding to be pedantry. In practice, pass-by-value and pass-by-reference provide neither accuracy nor understanding. Stop using them, and these arguments instantly vanish. > More often than not, in my experience, they are a larger source of bugs than those who strive to truly understand how their tools work. That I strive to truly understand how my tools work is the very reason I reject these terms as worthless.

jjnoakes 12y ago
> The terms would be useful if people agreed on their meaning (they do not) Most people agree on the meaning (read the JSL - it says Java is pass-by-value. Read Wikipedia too. Or really any other real reference that isn't some confused people in a forum.) > If you wish to accurately speak about what will happen, then speak about it That's what the article does. That's what the JSL does. People in these forums who still don't get it need something more. That's what I'm giving them.
- nknighthb 12y ago
  > Most people agree on the meaning (read the JSL - it says Java is pass-by-value. I assume you mean the JLS, in which case it -- very wisely -- does not use the term "pass-by-value" (or any similar term I've seen) to label its semantics. It simply describes its semantics. > Read Wikipedia too. Or really any other real reference that isn't some confused people in a forum.) So is it "most people" or a reference that, if anything, supports my point (JLS), an un-encyclopedia, and unspecified "real references" that aren't from people you enjoy insulting? > That's what the article does. That's one thing the article does, yes. Why is it you think you need to point that out? > People in these forums who still don't get it need something more. That's what I'm giving them. I agree you are giving people in this forum "something more". I suspect we disagree as to what that "something" is.
  - jjnoakes 12y ago
    > The JLS doesn't use pass-by-value Well, maybe not the exact letters "p-a-s-s-b-y-v-a-l-u-e" in a row like that, but sometimes you have to read and comprehend. The JLS does define exactly what happens when parameters are passed... http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-15.html#jls-15.12 http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-15.html... http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-8.html#jls-8.4.1 http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-8.html#... And that happens to match the definition of pass-by-value/call-by-value exactly (even Java is listed as an example language for pass-by-value) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_value http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_val... > people you enjoy insulting I haven't insulted anyone, have I? At least, not intentionally. No name-calling, sticking to the facts... I'm sorry if that somehow offends you. Some of us appreciate correctness and don't attribute the chase of it as ad hominem when it isn't.
    - nknighthb 12y ago
      > sometimes you have to read and comprehend If you don't understand how you're being insulting here, I can't help you. > The JLS does define exactly what happens when parameters are passed... Yes, it's very nice in that respect. > And that happens to match the definition of pass-by-value/call-by-value exactly (even Java is listed as an example language for pass-by-value) It happens to match the definition of "call-by-value" used by whoever wrote that blurb on Wikipedia you seem to love so much. The irony here, of course, is that people who like to use these terms don't even agree on how they're spelled... None of this makes the terms useful.
      - jjnoakes 12y ago
        If you google "pass-by-value" vs "pass-by-reference" and understand what they mean, in a language-agnostic way, and you understand what Java is doing when you pass parameters, then you too will come to the same conclusion and I have, and the people who wrote the wikipedia article, and everyone else. If you like, though, feel free to provide your plethora of references and documentation that supports your claim that pass-by-reference is meaningless, and is also what Java does. > If you don't understand how you're being insulting here, I can't help you. There's no help needed. Asking someone to read and comprehend is no more insulting than pointing out where they are wrong. If being wrong insults you, then I suggest you refrain from posting misguided opinions in technical forums and standing by your incorrect position even in the face of overwhelming opposition from numerous sources. If I was being insulting, I'd link you to the proggit thread and say "look, even proggit got it after a short discussion, why are the hacker news folks taking so long to get this simple concept"... but I haven't. Instead I would like to try to correct those who are mistaken. I feel like anyone who comes and reads the incorrect statements in threads like this should be able to then read the corrections so they too don't fall into the same traps you have.

jjnoakes 12y ago

> The terms would be useful if people agreed on their meaning (they do not) Most people agree on the meaning (read the JSL - it says Java is pass-by-value. Read Wikipedia too. Or really any other real reference that isn't some confused people in a forum.) > If you wish to accurately speak about what will happen, then speak about it That's what the article does. That's what the JSL does. People in these forums who still don't get it need something more. That's what I'm giving them.

nknighthb 12y ago
> Most people agree on the meaning (read the JSL - it says Java is pass-by-value. I assume you mean the JLS, in which case it -- very wisely -- does not use the term "pass-by-value" (or any similar term I've seen) to label its semantics. It simply describes its semantics. > Read Wikipedia too. Or really any other real reference that isn't some confused people in a forum.) So is it "most people" or a reference that, if anything, supports my point (JLS), an un-encyclopedia, and unspecified "real references" that aren't from people you enjoy insulting? > That's what the article does. That's one thing the article does, yes. Why is it you think you need to point that out? > People in these forums who still don't get it need something more. That's what I'm giving them. I agree you are giving people in this forum "something more". I suspect we disagree as to what that "something" is.
- jjnoakes 12y ago
  > The JLS doesn't use pass-by-value Well, maybe not the exact letters "p-a-s-s-b-y-v-a-l-u-e" in a row like that, but sometimes you have to read and comprehend. The JLS does define exactly what happens when parameters are passed... http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-15.html#jls-15.12 http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-15.html... http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-8.html#jls-8.4.1 http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-8.html#... And that happens to match the definition of pass-by-value/call-by-value exactly (even Java is listed as an example language for pass-by-value) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_value http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_val... > people you enjoy insulting I haven't insulted anyone, have I? At least, not intentionally. No name-calling, sticking to the facts... I'm sorry if that somehow offends you. Some of us appreciate correctness and don't attribute the chase of it as ad hominem when it isn't.
  - nknighthb 12y ago
    > sometimes you have to read and comprehend If you don't understand how you're being insulting here, I can't help you. > The JLS does define exactly what happens when parameters are passed... Yes, it's very nice in that respect. > And that happens to match the definition of pass-by-value/call-by-value exactly (even Java is listed as an example language for pass-by-value) It happens to match the definition of "call-by-value" used by whoever wrote that blurb on Wikipedia you seem to love so much. The irony here, of course, is that people who like to use these terms don't even agree on how they're spelled... None of this makes the terms useful.
    - jjnoakes 12y ago
      If you google "pass-by-value" vs "pass-by-reference" and understand what they mean, in a language-agnostic way, and you understand what Java is doing when you pass parameters, then you too will come to the same conclusion and I have, and the people who wrote the wikipedia article, and everyone else. If you like, though, feel free to provide your plethora of references and documentation that supports your claim that pass-by-reference is meaningless, and is also what Java does. > If you don't understand how you're being insulting here, I can't help you. There's no help needed. Asking someone to read and comprehend is no more insulting than pointing out where they are wrong. If being wrong insults you, then I suggest you refrain from posting misguided opinions in technical forums and standing by your incorrect position even in the face of overwhelming opposition from numerous sources. If I was being insulting, I'd link you to the proggit thread and say "look, even proggit got it after a short discussion, why are the hacker news folks taking so long to get this simple concept"... but I haven't. Instead I would like to try to correct those who are mistaken. I feel like anyone who comes and reads the incorrect statements in threads like this should be able to then read the corrections so they too don't fall into the same traps you have.