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I'm not confused at all, thank you. I'm of the long-standing and well-informed opinion that "pass-by-reference" and "pass-by-value" are worthless terms that nee

I'm not confused at all, thank you. I'm of the long-standing and well-informed opinion that "pass-by-reference" and "pass-by-value" are worthless terms that need to die, and that this entire conversation is an exercise in useless academic pedantry.

jjnoakes 12y ago
Based on your previous reply, you are indeed confused. Reference is a long-established term, and using it to refer to C pointers is typically considered incorrect. In addition, pass-by-reference and pass-by-value are very useful terms for anyone interested in accurately speaking about and understanding what will happen when they run the program they write. There are people who consider accuracy and understanding to be pedantry. More often than not, in my experience, they are a larger source of bugs than those who strive to truly understand how their tools work.
- nknighthb 12y ago
  > Reference is a long-established term, and using it to refer to C pointers is typically considered incorrect. I am not confused, I disagree. > In addition, pass-by-reference and pass-by-value are very useful terms for anyone interested in accurately speaking about and understanding what will happen when they run the program they write. The terms would be useful if people agreed on their meaning (they do not) and if languages actually followed one way or the other consistently (they do not). That is the very reason this thread exists. If you wish to accurately speak about what will happen, then speak about it. Describe what actually happens, instead of spending your time arguing about which round hole the square peg fits in better. > There are people who consider accuracy and understanding to be pedantry. In practice, pass-by-value and pass-by-reference provide neither accuracy nor understanding. Stop using them, and these arguments instantly vanish. > More often than not, in my experience, they are a larger source of bugs than those who strive to truly understand how their tools work. That I strive to truly understand how my tools work is the very reason I reject these terms as worthless.
  - jjnoakes 12y ago
    > The terms would be useful if people agreed on their meaning (they do not) Most people agree on the meaning (read the JSL - it says Java is pass-by-value. Read Wikipedia too. Or really any other real reference that isn't some confused people in a forum.) > If you wish to accurately speak about what will happen, then speak about it That's what the article does. That's what the JSL does. People in these forums who still don't get it need something more. That's what I'm giving them.
    - nknighthb 12y ago
      > Most people agree on the meaning (read the JSL - it says Java is pass-by-value. I assume you mean the JLS, in which case it -- very wisely -- does not use the term "pass-by-value" (or any similar term I've seen) to label its semantics. It simply describes its semantics. > Read Wikipedia too. Or really any other real reference that isn't some confused people in a forum.) So is it "most people" or a reference that, if anything, supports my point (JLS), an un-encyclopedia, and unspecified "real references" that aren't from people you enjoy insulting? > That's what the article does. That's one thing the article does, yes. Why is it you think you need to point that out? > People in these forums who still don't get it need something more. That's what I'm giving them. I agree you are giving people in this forum "something more". I suspect we disagree as to what that "something" is.
      - jjnoakes 12y ago
        > The JLS doesn't use pass-by-value Well, maybe not the exact letters "p-a-s-s-b-y-v-a-l-u-e" in a row like that, but sometimes you have to read and comprehend. The JLS does define exactly what happens when parameters are passed... http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-15.html#jls-15.12 http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-15.html... http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-8.html#jls-8.4.1 http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-8.html#... And that happens to match the definition of pass-by-value/call-by-value exactly (even Java is listed as an example language for pass-by-value) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_value http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_val... > people you enjoy insulting I haven't insulted anyone, have I? At least, not intentionally. No name-calling, sticking to the facts... I'm sorry if that somehow offends you. Some of us appreciate correctness and don't attribute the chase of it as ad hominem when it isn't.

jjnoakes 12y ago

Based on your previous reply, you are indeed confused. Reference is a long-established term, and using it to refer to C pointers is typically considered incorrect. In addition, pass-by-reference and pass-by-value are very useful terms for anyone interested in accurately speaking about and understanding what will happen when they run the program they write. There are people who consider accuracy and understanding to be pedantry. More often than not, in my experience, they are a larger source of bugs than those who strive to truly understand how their tools work.

nknighthb 12y ago
> Reference is a long-established term, and using it to refer to C pointers is typically considered incorrect. I am not confused, I disagree. > In addition, pass-by-reference and pass-by-value are very useful terms for anyone interested in accurately speaking about and understanding what will happen when they run the program they write. The terms would be useful if people agreed on their meaning (they do not) and if languages actually followed one way or the other consistently (they do not). That is the very reason this thread exists. If you wish to accurately speak about what will happen, then speak about it. Describe what actually happens, instead of spending your time arguing about which round hole the square peg fits in better. > There are people who consider accuracy and understanding to be pedantry. In practice, pass-by-value and pass-by-reference provide neither accuracy nor understanding. Stop using them, and these arguments instantly vanish. > More often than not, in my experience, they are a larger source of bugs than those who strive to truly understand how their tools work. That I strive to truly understand how my tools work is the very reason I reject these terms as worthless.
- jjnoakes 12y ago
  > The terms would be useful if people agreed on their meaning (they do not) Most people agree on the meaning (read the JSL - it says Java is pass-by-value. Read Wikipedia too. Or really any other real reference that isn't some confused people in a forum.) > If you wish to accurately speak about what will happen, then speak about it That's what the article does. That's what the JSL does. People in these forums who still don't get it need something more. That's what I'm giving them.
  - nknighthb 12y ago
    > Most people agree on the meaning (read the JSL - it says Java is pass-by-value. I assume you mean the JLS, in which case it -- very wisely -- does not use the term "pass-by-value" (or any similar term I've seen) to label its semantics. It simply describes its semantics. > Read Wikipedia too. Or really any other real reference that isn't some confused people in a forum.) So is it "most people" or a reference that, if anything, supports my point (JLS), an un-encyclopedia, and unspecified "real references" that aren't from people you enjoy insulting? > That's what the article does. That's one thing the article does, yes. Why is it you think you need to point that out? > People in these forums who still don't get it need something more. That's what I'm giving them. I agree you are giving people in this forum "something more". I suspect we disagree as to what that "something" is.
    - jjnoakes 12y ago
      > The JLS doesn't use pass-by-value Well, maybe not the exact letters "p-a-s-s-b-y-v-a-l-u-e" in a row like that, but sometimes you have to read and comprehend. The JLS does define exactly what happens when parameters are passed... http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-15.html#jls-15.12 http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-15.html... http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-8.html#jls-8.4.1 http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-8.html#... And that happens to match the definition of pass-by-value/call-by-value exactly (even Java is listed as an example language for pass-by-value) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_value http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_val... > people you enjoy insulting I haven't insulted anyone, have I? At least, not intentionally. No name-calling, sticking to the facts... I'm sorry if that somehow offends you. Some of us appreciate correctness and don't attribute the chase of it as ad hominem when it isn't.