5 ms·

I'm guessing my opinion won't be popular here, but I don't see anyone saying anything similar, so I'm going to speak up. There was once a time where unions wer

by akulbe 12y ago

I'm guessing my opinion won't be popular here, but I don't see anyone saying anything similar, so I'm going to speak up. There was once a time where unions were necessary. Personally, I think that time is long past. Now, I think unions breed mediocrity, and set up situations where you have folks with an attitude of entitlement striking when they don't get every last bit of their way. Walking around with picket signs like as if they are owed everything. Time to join the real world, with the rest of us. You don't always get what you want. We had gas prices go way down in the last couple months, then they went all the way back up. I had heard it attributed to refinery workers striking, because some had been laid off. I don't know if that is true, or not, but if it is... it only proves my point.

nyolfen 12y ago
you're right, those rich folks really do deserve to extract their employees' value in ever-increasing amounts, because poor people are spoiled or something
Devthrowaway80 12y ago
> Time to join the real world, with the rest of us. You don't always get what you want. "You're right sir, I don't deserve paid vacation or maternity leave. Yes sir, I don't deserve to work the 40 hours a week you pay for me. I'll get right to it, sir. How high do you want me to jump, sir?" Rugged individualist Americans standing up for their right to not have any leverage in negotiation with their betters, always a sight to see. > There was once a time where unions were necessary. Personally, I think that time is long past. Because real incomes for the majority have been flat in the US for the decades despite GDP increasing, income inequality increasing, and hours worked increasing?
wfo 12y ago
I think it's time for you to join the real world. Union workers are not entitled. You are coming from a place of entitlement if you think that life is that good for most workers. Union workers are trying to regain some semblance of power in an exploitative relationship. Many employers (all of the most efficient and therefore successful ones) are abusive. Even the hyper-entitled, and therefore hyper-libertarian software engineers are abused by their employers - employers break the law and collude to depress wages, if you want a real example from the news. Employees as a whole in this country are currently getting screwed -- because of a very well funded and long-running campaign by business interests to destroy unions through criminal action, regulatory capture, propaganda, etc. Incidentally it's much easier to convince software engineers to turn on each other and work against their best interests, all it takes is a quick ego stroke -- claim 'no, we're only going to screw over the \bad\ engineers, and you're not one of them... are you?' Fortunately some of them trying to stop it. Complaining about gas prices changing because of those pesky entitled blue collar upstarts acting above their class and demanding to be treated like human beings doesn't particularly endear people to your cause either. There are arguments to be made against unions; none of these are them.
- akulbe 12y ago
  Before I comment, I want to clarify. I'm not trying to come across like a jerk. I certainly think there are things about the current system of employment that can improve. But you can negotiate what you get. I stand by the statement that you don't always get what you want, but you can compromise with an employer and meet in the middle. Digging your heels in (like unions often do) isn't very productive. If you don't like the terms, you can look for employment elsewhere, right? One other thing to consider... remove the gatekeeper/middleman. By that, I mean work for yourself. It's not easy, but you have more flexibility to charge what you want, and go after the things that are important to you, in your work. In addition to working for yourself, I'd like to add that having multiple streams of income, even small, can give you a greater degree of freedom.
cdcarter 12y ago
A union that many of my friends are members of recently had a massive debate, and was near split, on whether or not it was okay for workers to take contracts that are BELOW minimum wage [0]. That's how systematic the oppression by employers upon labor is. Even members of longstanding and powerful unions find themselves believing they aren't worth fair pay, because they've been told and exploited over and over again. [0]: AEA, w/r/t the LA 99-seat plan.
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
Your observation rests on a truism that, hey, people look out to maximize their self-interests. Unsurprising. The point here is that the two sides of labor and equity exerting pressure and regulating each other (in an informal sense) is not inherently bad by any means, and mostly desirable over one side becoming stagnant in its dominance. There are obviously many arguments that can be made against labor unions, but appealing to things like "the real world" and "attitude of entitlement" is silly. Especially considering that many people who make propositions like this are then just as quick to defend rent-seeking activities, as long as it creates liquidity it's all fine in their world view.

by akulbe 12y ago

nyolfen 12y ago

you're right, those rich folks really do deserve to extract their employees' value in ever-increasing amounts, because poor people are spoiled or something

Devthrowaway80 12y ago

> Time to join the real world, with the rest of us. You don't always get what you want. "You're right sir, I don't deserve paid vacation or maternity leave. Yes sir, I don't deserve to work the 40 hours a week you pay for me. I'll get right to it, sir. How high do you want me to jump, sir?" Rugged individualist Americans standing up for their right to not have any leverage in negotiation with their betters, always a sight to see. > There was once a time where unions were necessary. Personally, I think that time is long past. Because real incomes for the majority have been flat in the US for the decades despite GDP increasing, income inequality increasing, and hours worked increasing?

wfo 12y ago

I think it's time for you to join the real world. Union workers are not entitled. You are coming from a place of entitlement if you think that life is that good for most workers. Union workers are trying to regain some semblance of power in an exploitative relationship. Many employers (all of the most efficient and therefore successful ones) are abusive. Even the hyper-entitled, and therefore hyper-libertarian software engineers are abused by their employers - employers break the law and collude to depress wages, if you want a real example from the news. Employees as a whole in this country are currently getting screwed -- because of a very well funded and long-running campaign by business interests to destroy unions through criminal action, regulatory capture, propaganda, etc. Incidentally it's much easier to convince software engineers to turn on each other and work against their best interests, all it takes is a quick ego stroke -- claim 'no, we're only going to screw over the \bad\ engineers, and you're not one of them... are you?' Fortunately some of them trying to stop it. Complaining about gas prices changing because of those pesky entitled blue collar upstarts acting above their class and demanding to be treated like human beings doesn't particularly endear people to your cause either. There are arguments to be made against unions; none of these are them.

akulbe 12y ago
Before I comment, I want to clarify. I'm not trying to come across like a jerk. I certainly think there are things about the current system of employment that can improve. But you can negotiate what you get. I stand by the statement that you don't always get what you want, but you can compromise with an employer and meet in the middle. Digging your heels in (like unions often do) isn't very productive. If you don't like the terms, you can look for employment elsewhere, right? One other thing to consider... remove the gatekeeper/middleman. By that, I mean work for yourself. It's not easy, but you have more flexibility to charge what you want, and go after the things that are important to you, in your work. In addition to working for yourself, I'd like to add that having multiple streams of income, even small, can give you a greater degree of freedom.

cdcarter 12y ago

A union that many of my friends are members of recently had a massive debate, and was near split, on whether or not it was okay for workers to take contracts that are BELOW minimum wage [0]. That's how systematic the oppression by employers upon labor is. Even members of longstanding and powerful unions find themselves believing they aren't worth fair pay, because they've been told and exploited over and over again. [0]: AEA, w/r/t the LA 99-seat plan.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

Your observation rests on a truism that, hey, people look out to maximize their self-interests. Unsurprising. The point here is that the two sides of labor and equity exerting pressure and regulating each other (in an informal sense) is not inherently bad by any means, and mostly desirable over one side becoming stagnant in its dominance. There are obviously many arguments that can be made against labor unions, but appealing to things like "the real world" and "attitude of entitlement" is silly. Especially considering that many people who make propositions like this are then just as quick to defend rent-seeking activities, as long as it creates liquidity it's all fine in their world view.