4 ms·

Perhaps we're considering different scenarios. Hobson's choice may possibly apply to unskilled or low skilled jobs. So anything that pays less than $50,000/year

Perhaps we're considering different scenarios. Hobson's choice may possibly apply to unskilled or low skilled jobs. So anything that pays less than $50,000/year in the US. Above $50k individuals absolutely have the ability to negotiate. And to do so strongly from a position of power. Good help is hard to find. When you're in the 6 figure range negotiating with huge corporations is the best. Small shops are tight on cash. There's not a lot of wiggle room. For huge corporations there's a lot of room to negotiate. Salary, bonuses, paid time off, and more. It's not crazy to negotiate 50% more compensation than their median offer for a given position.

Apocryphon 12y ago
Doesn't scandals such as the Non-poaching case between Apple, Google, Adobe, Intel, etc. reveal that even high-skilled workers aren't immune to the tricks of corporate management?
- ptaipale 12y ago
  Well, the point about that scandal was that what Apple, Google and others were doing was illegal.
  - pgeorgi 12y ago
    But since you can't jail a corporation, all it boils down for Apple, Google and others is a simple financial cost/benefit calculation. And I'm not sure if the class action lawsuit tipped the scale towards not doing such things yet.
Retra 12y ago
What you are worth is not an absolute measure. You would be worth more if you had more power to negotiate your value. If you have more power when you earn more and the people hiring you are incentivized to minimize your earnings, you create a down-ward spiral of value. Why'd you pick $50,000? If I make $40K and with a union I'd make $60K, then obviously I've lost negotiating power.
- mhuffman 12y ago
  You know a nearly sure-fire way to make a higher salary? Be worth more to the company! I have never in my life seen a company tell a valuable (note: valuable to a company is a person that is saving or making the company money, not just someone alive and willing to work) employee to go suck it, if they made a reasonable request for more money. Why in the world would anyone think that it is ok for everyone to "Just Make More Money" simply because they are in a group? Clearly in any group of employees, some will be more valuable to the company, and others less valuable. This is not a slight against the less valuable employees, just a fact of life. If you can accept that all employees are not perfectly identical in every way, then it stands to reason that the productive employees do have bargaining power. Their leverage is that they can leave. It would further stand to reason that less productive or easily replaceable (unskilled, untrained, etc.) employees would have less bargaining power, because of the fact that they can easily be replaced. With discrimination, minimum wages, OSHA, child labor, etc. already on the law books, why are people even talking seriously about unions these days? You example is a perfect demonstration of union mentality: As a group you want to bully an extra $20k out of a firm, for what reason? Just because you are a group and can? You will notice that you actually being worth the extra $20k wasn't a prerequisite, only that you now have the power of a union to muscle it out of the employer.
  - Retra 12y ago
    >You will notice that you actually being worth the extra $20k wasn't a prerequisite, only that you now have the power of a union to muscle it out of the employer. And having more power makes you more valuable, because having powerful people work for you is a boon. So we're full circle again. You example is a perfect demonstration of corporate mentality: As a group you want to bully an extra $20k out of an employee, for what reason? Just because you are a corporation and you can? >With discrimination, minimum wages, OSHA, child labor, etc. already on the law books, why are people even talking seriously about unions these days? Maybe because unions caused those things to happen, dummy. "With NASA putting men on the moon and building numerous technological advances, why are people even talking seriously about funding NASA these days?" See how absurd that sounds?

Apocryphon 12y ago

Doesn't scandals such as the Non-poaching case between Apple, Google, Adobe, Intel, etc. reveal that even high-skilled workers aren't immune to the tricks of corporate management?

ptaipale 12y ago
Well, the point about that scandal was that what Apple, Google and others were doing was illegal.
- pgeorgi 12y ago
  But since you can't jail a corporation, all it boils down for Apple, Google and others is a simple financial cost/benefit calculation. And I'm not sure if the class action lawsuit tipped the scale towards not doing such things yet.

Retra 12y ago

What you are worth is not an absolute measure. You would be worth more if you had more power to negotiate your value. If you have more power when you earn more and the people hiring you are incentivized to minimize your earnings, you create a down-ward spiral of value. Why'd you pick $50,000? If I make $40K and with a union I'd make $60K, then obviously I've lost negotiating power.

mhuffman 12y ago
You know a nearly sure-fire way to make a higher salary? Be worth more to the company! I have never in my life seen a company tell a valuable (note: valuable to a company is a person that is saving or making the company money, not just someone alive and willing to work) employee to go suck it, if they made a reasonable request for more money. Why in the world would anyone think that it is ok for everyone to "Just Make More Money" simply because they are in a group? Clearly in any group of employees, some will be more valuable to the company, and others less valuable. This is not a slight against the less valuable employees, just a fact of life. If you can accept that all employees are not perfectly identical in every way, then it stands to reason that the productive employees do have bargaining power. Their leverage is that they can leave. It would further stand to reason that less productive or easily replaceable (unskilled, untrained, etc.) employees would have less bargaining power, because of the fact that they can easily be replaced. With discrimination, minimum wages, OSHA, child labor, etc. already on the law books, why are people even talking seriously about unions these days? You example is a perfect demonstration of union mentality: As a group you want to bully an extra $20k out of a firm, for what reason? Just because you are a group and can? You will notice that you actually being worth the extra $20k wasn't a prerequisite, only that you now have the power of a union to muscle it out of the employer.
- Retra 12y ago
  >You will notice that you actually being worth the extra $20k wasn't a prerequisite, only that you now have the power of a union to muscle it out of the employer. And having more power makes you more valuable, because having powerful people work for you is a boon. So we're full circle again. You example is a perfect demonstration of corporate mentality: As a group you want to bully an extra $20k out of an employee, for what reason? Just because you are a corporation and you can? >With discrimination, minimum wages, OSHA, child labor, etc. already on the law books, why are people even talking seriously about unions these days? Maybe because unions caused those things to happen, dummy. "With NASA putting men on the moon and building numerous technological advances, why are people even talking seriously about funding NASA these days?" See how absurd that sounds?