5 ms·

Except the reality is that we are not getting paid "so well". Given the scarcity and value of our skills, we're getting screwed. We're not very good at negotia

Except the reality is that we are not getting paid "so well". Given the scarcity and value of our skills, we're getting screwed. We're not very good at negotiating as individual professionals, and we're being taken advantage of on a massive scale.

MCRed 12y ago
I agree with you, but I don't for a second think unions will change that. Unions won't eliminate the problem of non-technical people running engineering departments and deciding salaries-- they will simply put a non-technical union negotiator in there. This will make it worse because companies do actually compete not to lose engineering talent right now... but if your only option is another union shop where you'll make exactly the same wage, you become a commodity. Unions commoditize workers. http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap20p4.html http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap20p4.html
- pdonis 12y ago
  > Unions commoditize workers. Can't upvote this enough.
  - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
    And corporations try to commoditise labour even more aggressively. Your point is...?
    - pdonis 12y ago
      My point is that if you're a worker who doesn't want to be commoditized, you have to fend for yourself. The company won't protect you from it, but neither will unions. Basically, if you see yourself as part of any group, whether it's "all the employees of company X" or "all the members of union Y", you're asking to be commoditized.
      - vidarh 12y ago
        The reality is that the vast majority of software developers does not stand out enough to get any benefit from fending for themselves. It's funny to see this idea repeated throughout this thread that we're all special snowflakes that can negotiate better deals on our own. Even more funny if you look back at the many threads about negotiating salary and see the huge number of people on HN that never even negotiate initial offers but just accepts what they're handed. My own experience is that some of us can negotiate outstanding deals, but from managing teams for the last 20 years and being part of salary negotiations and ranking developers for most of that, in almost every company I've worked, I've seen seen software staff get lumped together in big buckets of (from the company's perception) entirely interchangeable developers and set raises across whole blocks, with the only salary differences generally being banded by narrowly by position other than for a tiny (5%-10%) portion of top performances. Odds are you are a commodity to your employer in terms of salary and performance.
        Amezarak 12y ago
        Precisely. At every company I've ever worked at or gotten an offer from, salary was effectively non-negotiable, because HR set the rules of The Band and the Rules were the Rules, which the hiring managers simply had to abide by. Occasionally I've been able to extract a hiring bonus or something relatively minor like that, but the insistence with which they stick to the salary is mind-boggling. It got really absurd at my last job, where I was co-lead on the most profitable team in the company and a "10x" developer: I got an offer for much more money elsewhere, so I regretfully (I really liked that job) sent in my resignation. They asked me why, I told them it was honestly too much money to pass up. My "people" manager, project manager, and a senior manager fought hard to get me a counteroffer. They escalated all the way to the VP of HR, a direct report of the CEO. The final response was "no, he can't have that, that would be out of band, and he can't move out of the band yet because his degree + years of experience doesn't equal x." This materially affected the company. One of our clients in particular was a little paranoid and I had developed a great working relationship with them - when I left, they effectively put in a stop work for months until they were satisfied my replacements understood the system as well as I did. (Which I don't believe was necessary; they were not as good, but they were and are good enough, but the guy was really paranoid. Perhaps understandably, since bugs would have directly led to financial mishaps.) But in general the band system saves companies money, so they stick with it. Of course there are plenty of exceptions - things are obviously different in startups, for example, where HR might not even exist, and plenty of companies don't give HR so much power.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  Software workers are already treated as commodities, so even if one were to accept that last statement as fact it wouldn't actually have much relevance. Being a commodity worker with higher minimum compensation and even marginally better working environments is better than the status quo.
- phaemon 12y ago
  >Unions commoditize workers. >http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap20p4.html http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap20p4.html That link is just terrible. It makes no intelligent argument and presents no evidence of anything. It's drivel. If you think there's an intelligent argument in there, please let me know. Meanwhile, here's a reason that corporations in corrupt states actively try to stop unions, and it's not because they think that worker wages are too low.
  - honeybooboo123 12y ago
    Do you seriously think you've refuted Hazlitt by calling his article "drivel"? It's clearly not drivel, and clearly not unintelligent either, by the way. Yeah that's just my claim against yours. I could back it up but I doubt you'll even see this because I'm shadowbanned (for speaking the truth).
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  I rather prefer Smith on these matters to Hazlitt, whose own conflicts of interest with FEE are well known. What are the common wages of labour, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little, as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower, the wages of labour. It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily: and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit, their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes, the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks, which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year, without employment. In the long run, the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate. ... and on for a bit (as Smith is wont to do). An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes Of the Wealth Of Nations Chapter VIII. Of the Wages Of Labour The produce of labour constitutes the natural recompence or wages of labour. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2HCH0008 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2H...

MCRed 12y ago

I agree with you, but I don't for a second think unions will change that. Unions won't eliminate the problem of non-technical people running engineering departments and deciding salaries-- they will simply put a non-technical union negotiator in there. This will make it worse because companies do actually compete not to lose engineering talent right now... but if your only option is another union shop where you'll make exactly the same wage, you become a commodity. Unions commoditize workers. http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap20p4.html http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap20p4.html

pdonis 12y ago
> Unions commoditize workers. Can't upvote this enough.
- TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
  And corporations try to commoditise labour even more aggressively. Your point is...?
  - pdonis 12y ago
    My point is that if you're a worker who doesn't want to be commoditized, you have to fend for yourself. The company won't protect you from it, but neither will unions. Basically, if you see yourself as part of any group, whether it's "all the employees of company X" or "all the members of union Y", you're asking to be commoditized.
    - vidarh 12y ago
      The reality is that the vast majority of software developers does not stand out enough to get any benefit from fending for themselves. It's funny to see this idea repeated throughout this thread that we're all special snowflakes that can negotiate better deals on our own. Even more funny if you look back at the many threads about negotiating salary and see the huge number of people on HN that never even negotiate initial offers but just accepts what they're handed. My own experience is that some of us can negotiate outstanding deals, but from managing teams for the last 20 years and being part of salary negotiations and ranking developers for most of that, in almost every company I've worked, I've seen seen software staff get lumped together in big buckets of (from the company's perception) entirely interchangeable developers and set raises across whole blocks, with the only salary differences generally being banded by narrowly by position other than for a tiny (5%-10%) portion of top performances. Odds are you are a commodity to your employer in terms of salary and performance.
      - Amezarak 12y ago
        Precisely. At every company I've ever worked at or gotten an offer from, salary was effectively non-negotiable, because HR set the rules of The Band and the Rules were the Rules, which the hiring managers simply had to abide by. Occasionally I've been able to extract a hiring bonus or something relatively minor like that, but the insistence with which they stick to the salary is mind-boggling. It got really absurd at my last job, where I was co-lead on the most profitable team in the company and a "10x" developer: I got an offer for much more money elsewhere, so I regretfully (I really liked that job) sent in my resignation. They asked me why, I told them it was honestly too much money to pass up. My "people" manager, project manager, and a senior manager fought hard to get me a counteroffer. They escalated all the way to the VP of HR, a direct report of the CEO. The final response was "no, he can't have that, that would be out of band, and he can't move out of the band yet because his degree + years of experience doesn't equal x." This materially affected the company. One of our clients in particular was a little paranoid and I had developed a great working relationship with them - when I left, they effectively put in a stop work for months until they were satisfied my replacements understood the system as well as I did. (Which I don't believe was necessary; they were not as good, but they were and are good enough, but the guy was really paranoid. Perhaps understandably, since bugs would have directly led to financial mishaps.) But in general the band system saves companies money, so they stick with it. Of course there are plenty of exceptions - things are obviously different in startups, for example, where HR might not even exist, and plenty of companies don't give HR so much power.
Iftheshoefits 12y ago
Software workers are already treated as commodities, so even if one were to accept that last statement as fact it wouldn't actually have much relevance. Being a commodity worker with higher minimum compensation and even marginally better working environments is better than the status quo.
phaemon 12y ago
>Unions commoditize workers. >http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap20p4.html http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap20p4.html That link is just terrible. It makes no intelligent argument and presents no evidence of anything. It's drivel. If you think there's an intelligent argument in there, please let me know. Meanwhile, here's a reason that corporations in corrupt states actively try to stop unions, and it's not because they think that worker wages are too low.
- honeybooboo123 12y ago
  Do you seriously think you've refuted Hazlitt by calling his article "drivel"? It's clearly not drivel, and clearly not unintelligent either, by the way. Yeah that's just my claim against yours. I could back it up but I doubt you'll even see this because I'm shadowbanned (for speaking the truth).
dredmorbius 12y ago
I rather prefer Smith on these matters to Hazlitt, whose own conflicts of interest with FEE are well known. What are the common wages of labour, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little, as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower, the wages of labour. It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily: and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit, their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes, the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks, which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year, without employment. In the long run, the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate. ... and on for a bit (as Smith is wont to do). An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes Of the Wealth Of Nations Chapter VIII. Of the Wages Of Labour The produce of labour constitutes the natural recompence or wages of labour. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2HCH0008 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2H...