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"you and your colleagues would get to decide the rules like that" False. People who worked there before you decided the rules. Once you have an entrenched seni

"you and your colleagues would get to decide the rules like that" False. People who worked there before you decided the rules. Once you have an entrenched senior workforce the probability that they will vote themselves less power or money is remarkably low. It's basically the same problem as NIMBYism.

heydenberk 12y ago
I'm very strongly pro-union, but this is an indisputable fact. If labor is to make a comeback in the 21st century, this is an important lesson that needs to be learned.
- bduerst 12y ago
  Interesting. How would you set up a union system that is self improving? Normally organizations need to compete to survive, with the more ineffectual falling off. You can't necessarily have unions compete for members, because the power of the union is in how many members it has and fractioning them would diminish their authority.
  - heydenberk 12y ago
    In general, self-improving institutions operate by setting goals, evaluating those goals with metrics and iterating on the underlying model so as to improve those metrics. I know that's a simplistic answer, but I lack the specific understanding of how unions currently work to provide better insight.
  - minthd 12y ago
    There are unions in the nordic countries. They generally work quite well and don't hurt those countries competitiveness - those nations are quite competitive. I believe Germany is also highly unionized. So maybe we should learn from them ? And BTW in all those countries one thing about those unions is that they are highly responsible - they understand the market realities and understand that people need to justify salries or else there would be layoffs.
    - bnolsen 12y ago
      no. hard working europeans leave europe to escape the system where they have little hope of bettering themselves in the european system. lots of them showed up in china working as part of outsource or manufacturing firms. talked to several myself.
    - pgeorgi 12y ago
      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-19/volkswagen-s-sort-of-union-in-tennessee http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-19/volkswagen... describes the tension of having a company with German-style union-values operate in the US.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- ealexhudson 12y ago
  I don't think it's the case that people will stay in the same employ for many years like they used to; unionised or not. People expect to change jobs much more often.
cynicalkane 12y ago
Right now the above post looks about -2 despite being absolutely correct. Downvoting informed people is the worst way to express disagreement. It contributes nothing, and makes your side look bad.
- bsder 12y ago
  It deserves the downvotes because it ignores reality. Many of the steelworkers unions in the early 80's went out of their way to try to get people retired so that the younger people would still have jobs. They also worked very hard to get people transferred to other sites to reach the point where they could retire even if it meant sacrificing some salary. Or, for something more recent, many of the unions involved with Hostess took several rounds of cuts before finally standing up and taking a hard line that eventually led to the bankruptcy. And, it looks like Hostess is going to be better off because of it. The downvotes are well warranted because he spewed propaganda instead of citing real facts.
bandushrew 12y ago
Unions that are well run frequently recognise the realities of business finances, and there are multiple examples of unions that have indeed voted to take a pay cut, if you care to go looking.
task_queue 12y ago
It's the same problem businesses have everywhere, except the good ones know how to weed it out. Same rule applies to unions.
HaloZero 12y ago
Doesn't voting for a board control in the Union allow for this? Like you have 4-5 people in charge but they have to be elected by the body of the Union.
SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
In a blog entry by Micheal O. Church [1], he argues that in the companies that most need unionization, the downsides like wage normalization and seniority rules are already in place, and adding unionization to the mix almost can't make things worse. He also provides examples of unionized industries where "star performers" have no wage limits -- that the only limit is in the minimum pay for a position. And he points out the many ways a union could support programmer rights (for instance, the right to own personal projects), and kill damaging practices like stack ranking. We need something. That much is clear. Whether it's a professional guild or a union, I'm not sure. But the status quo is awful for most of us. [2] [1] https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/it-might-be-time-for-software-engineers-especially-in-silicon-valley-to-unionize/ https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/it-might-be-... [2] I'm actually one of the "1%" who is quite well compensated, but I think more of us should be compensated based on our abilities. And I do want to get rid of the "we own your free time projects" rules everywhere; I consider those to be morally reprehensible. Edit: Added "unionized" to the second paragraph to make it clear what I meant.
- refurb 12y ago
  But the status quo is awful for most of us. No offense, but I think that statement is ridiculous. You admit you're in the top 1% of income earners in the US and you choose to use the word "awful" for your predicament?
  - edwinnathaniel 12y ago
    He's the 1% and the "awful for most of us" is for the 99%.
  - Igglyboo 12y ago
    Just because he's rich doesn't mean he can't sympathise with or understand the plight of the middle class, just like most people understand and sympathize with the plight of the poor.
    - refurb 12y ago
mc32 12y ago
This reminds me how senior pilots will vote against raises for junior pilots so the senior pilots can preserve or increase their pay[1] [1]http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines

heydenberk 12y ago

I'm very strongly pro-union, but this is an indisputable fact. If labor is to make a comeback in the 21st century, this is an important lesson that needs to be learned.

bduerst 12y ago
Interesting. How would you set up a union system that is self improving? Normally organizations need to compete to survive, with the more ineffectual falling off. You can't necessarily have unions compete for members, because the power of the union is in how many members it has and fractioning them would diminish their authority.
- heydenberk 12y ago
  In general, self-improving institutions operate by setting goals, evaluating those goals with metrics and iterating on the underlying model so as to improve those metrics. I know that's a simplistic answer, but I lack the specific understanding of how unions currently work to provide better insight.
- minthd 12y ago
  There are unions in the nordic countries. They generally work quite well and don't hurt those countries competitiveness - those nations are quite competitive. I believe Germany is also highly unionized. So maybe we should learn from them ? And BTW in all those countries one thing about those unions is that they are highly responsible - they understand the market realities and understand that people need to justify salries or else there would be layoffs.
  - bnolsen 12y ago
    no. hard working europeans leave europe to escape the system where they have little hope of bettering themselves in the european system. lots of them showed up in china working as part of outsource or manufacturing firms. talked to several myself.
  - pgeorgi 12y ago
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-19/volkswagen-s-sort-of-union-in-tennessee http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-19/volkswagen... describes the tension of having a company with German-style union-values operate in the US.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
ealexhudson 12y ago
I don't think it's the case that people will stay in the same employ for many years like they used to; unionised or not. People expect to change jobs much more often.

cynicalkane 12y ago

Right now the above post looks about -2 despite being absolutely correct. Downvoting informed people is the worst way to express disagreement. It contributes nothing, and makes your side look bad.

bsder 12y ago
It deserves the downvotes because it ignores reality. Many of the steelworkers unions in the early 80's went out of their way to try to get people retired so that the younger people would still have jobs. They also worked very hard to get people transferred to other sites to reach the point where they could retire even if it meant sacrificing some salary. Or, for something more recent, many of the unions involved with Hostess took several rounds of cuts before finally standing up and taking a hard line that eventually led to the bankruptcy. And, it looks like Hostess is going to be better off because of it. The downvotes are well warranted because he spewed propaganda instead of citing real facts.

bandushrew 12y ago

Unions that are well run frequently recognise the realities of business finances, and there are multiple examples of unions that have indeed voted to take a pay cut, if you care to go looking.

task_queue 12y ago

It's the same problem businesses have everywhere, except the good ones know how to weed it out. Same rule applies to unions.

HaloZero 12y ago

Doesn't voting for a board control in the Union allow for this? Like you have 4-5 people in charge but they have to be elected by the body of the Union.

SomeCallMeTim 12y ago

In a blog entry by Micheal O. Church [1], he argues that in the companies that most need unionization, the downsides like wage normalization and seniority rules are already in place, and adding unionization to the mix almost can't make things worse. He also provides examples of unionized industries where "star performers" have no wage limits -- that the only limit is in the minimum pay for a position. And he points out the many ways a union could support programmer rights (for instance, the right to own personal projects), and kill damaging practices like stack ranking. We need something. That much is clear. Whether it's a professional guild or a union, I'm not sure. But the status quo is awful for most of us. [2] [1] https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/it-might-be-time-for-software-engineers-especially-in-silicon-valley-to-unionize/ https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/it-might-be-... [2] I'm actually one of the "1%" who is quite well compensated, but I think more of us should be compensated based on our abilities. And I do want to get rid of the "we own your free time projects" rules everywhere; I consider those to be morally reprehensible. Edit: Added "unionized" to the second paragraph to make it clear what I meant.

refurb 12y ago
But the status quo is awful for most of us. No offense, but I think that statement is ridiculous. You admit you're in the top 1% of income earners in the US and you choose to use the word "awful" for your predicament?
- edwinnathaniel 12y ago
  He's the 1% and the "awful for most of us" is for the 99%.
- Igglyboo 12y ago
  Just because he's rich doesn't mean he can't sympathise with or understand the plight of the middle class, just like most people understand and sympathize with the plight of the poor.
  - refurb 12y ago

mc32 12y ago

This reminds me how senior pilots will vote against raises for junior pilots so the senior pilots can preserve or increase their pay[1] [1]http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines