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Ask HN: Former freelance client screwed me. Having trouble moving on. Advice?

• fasteo 12y ago
  >> preventing me from moving on mentally You must absolutely close this forever. >> don't need the money Go for the legal action. Don´t think of it as revenge, for it is not. Even if you end up losing, you definitely win.
  • kolleykibber 12y ago
    I'm genuinely curious? Why do you think a loss legally, which could be financially and mentally extremely challenging, would be a win?
    • fasteo 12y ago
      He seems to have a mental blockage with this situation. Some years later and he still needs to write about it and ask for advice. He is probably taking this as an excuse for others unrelated things happening in his life (this is very subjective, but I was in a somehow similar situation years ago) A legal action is just a way to put a definitive end to all this. The outcome is not important; he will feel liberated, even if he loses.
• iterationx 12y ago
  Your physical and mental energy and time is a finite resource. Don't waste it.
• Red_Tarsius 12y ago
  I'm a very vengeful guy. If you have wronged me years ago I'd still bear grudges and find serious ways to give back. It's my weakness and it's not healthy. You should let it go. Think about it: how much time and money would you waste in a legal action? Is it worth the stress and commitment? It's not. IMHO don't feed the mob with public shaming. It's a scar, not an open wound and you should simply warn other freelancers from joining his company. It's the difference between being unprofessional and acting as a good mentor. > I foolishly did not draft a formal contract -- a mistake I never made again... This is a lesson every freelancer I met learns the hard way.
  • throwaway22mar 12y ago
    while I don't believe it's related to OP anymore (see my other reply to him) i wanted to highlight that your comment shows an amazing level of self-reflection. ("I'm a very vengeful guy"). Would you say you're a psychopath? [EDIT: this is an honest question out of curiosity, not an accusation.] What about other people - do you think hey hold grudges for years against you, too? Wouldn't it suck if something bad that serious happened to you, a major setback, but it was because of some guy you have never thought about thought he was "givign back" something against some way he thought you wronged him years ago? Even though you did not in fact have this intention? What I'm saying is that I know basically no one who just does things out of spite. So if you feel that you were personally wronged, don't you think you could be misinterpreting, and doling out punishment against people who haven't thought about you since (or have any reason to) but who's next interaction with you is a shit sandwich for no reason? Just curious here.
    • Red_Tarsius 12y ago
      I'm NOT a psychopath, I think that honest writing makes for more informative posts, while showing empathy and common ground for the OP. You highlight one of the most famous cautionary tales: the Chain of Revenge. You're right and, as I suggested, OP should let it go. Although a grudge, no matter how small, is not something you just shake off from you. Rational thinking can only take you that far, the real deal is to forgive, which takes time and willpower.
• cr3ative 12y ago
  > I foolishly did not draft a formal contract Move on. It is extremely unlikely that legal action will get you anywhere. It's your word against theirs. Have you considered that without concrete proof of your claims, they could initiate legal action against you for slander if they felt like it? "Public shaming" could be seen as tortious interference.
• carrotleads 12y ago
  You should let it go and the only way to let it go is to forgive him from the bottom of your heart.. not a lip service "I forgive you" statement on WWW or even to him directly... Its a statement you tell yourself and he will feel it in your face/behaviour when you interact next... I said forgive and not forget... you can always learn from the experience and make needed changes. one of the lessons may be that he is untrustworthy and so don't trust him with anything until you have reason to consider otherwise.. PS : I have been led to believe that email comms can be treated as contract, so check it out with legals..
• charlesdm 12y ago
  Write it off. One thing I probably would do is send a friendly e-mail to the investors, explaining the situation. Keep it short, a few sentences max. Given the situation, offer they pay you a reasonable fee for the problem to go away. Do you have any evidence supporting your claim? The fact that there was no formal contract does not mean he legally owns your IP. E-mails can be valid contracts. Did they rebuild the software or continue working from what you build? Problems like these can be major deterrents for future investors/acquirers.
  • Red_Tarsius 12y ago
    > Given the situation, offer they pay you a reasonable fee for the problem to go away. I'm afraid the investors would read it as some kind of bribe and the culprit could sue him for such accusations. He doesn't have a contract to support his claims, the e-mail would cause more trouble than it's worth it.
    • charlesdm 12y ago
      Doesn't he have e-mails to prove his case? Those are often as good as a written contract. At the very least, they should know the kind of person who they invested money in. In addition, they invested in this company to make money, no? In the event they are not interested in fixing it now and you have some valid evidence then you can always sue if they make it big/sell it.
  • thrownaway122 12y ago
    This could be libel... Or blackmail... If the OP does not have evidence to back up the claim he could be the one paying. (I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice and I assume nor are you.)
    • charlesdm 12y ago
      I would assume there is some evidence to support his claim. Indeed, if there is nothing, then probably nothing can be done. It also depends on how you word it. I would offer to transfer the IP rights of the original software to them. If they're not using the original software, then again there might be little he can do. I'm not a lawyer, but did discuss a similar situation with a lawyer friend a while back. Worth getting an initial consultation about this with a lawyer, imo.
• DanBC 12y ago
  Allow yourself some time -less than an hour- to examine your thougts and emotions. These examples might not be applicable to you! "I was conned", which is causing "I feel humiliation and anger" and the evidence "he ripped me off and then made a load of money". Try to give a rough rating to the intesity. "I feel this strongly" or "this feels like a 3 out of 5". Then start thinking about other evidence. "I could have retaliated, but I haven't. That's because I am honorable and have integrity." Or "it really sucked at the time, and it still sucks a bit, but I did learn from the experience and I am a better business person because of it." The aim with the new evidence is not to remove the sting but to reduce it a bit, to reduce the intensity of the feelings. It's iterative. This is a structured method to help control intrusive thoughts. If I tell you not to think of an elephant you're probably going to picture an elephant, so not thinking about stuff isn't always as straightforward as just pushing it out of your mind.
  • MisterWebz 12y ago
    So the correct response to someone ripping you off is using mental tricks to convince yourself you're better off than before?
    • Squarel 12y ago
      The correct response is to try to recoup your losses, but, not lose too much sleep over them, because I guarantee they are not losing any sleep over you. Much as with anyone who screws you over, or otherwise causes you problems.
    • Rygu 12y ago
      Fact: he is already convinced that he's better off, because he is. Read his post again. IMHO these aren't "mental tricks" but valid suggestions for him to find closure to something from the past that he really shouldn't consider important anymore. Finding peace is good.
    • rday 12y ago
      I would agree that it is the correct response. It sounds stupid to just let people get one over on you, sure. But every freelancer (that I know of) has been screwed by a client at some point. Since it happens to everyone, the interesting part of the story becomes how you handled it. Not that it happened.
• up_and_up 12y ago
  Maybe try something like: http://olddebts.com/ http://olddebts.com/ You have the date of the last invoice no? With something like Old Debts it will at least hit their credit rating if they don't pay up. I recently had success with this and got money out of a client. That unpaid balance will follow them for a long time and they will have to resolve the issue with you. Beyond getting your money back I wouldnt take revenge by going negative publicly and creating drama.
• HarrietJones 12y ago
  You have an email from them saying that the final 2/3 payment is contingent on them getting funcding, and they got funding? Resend the bill for the remainder. Give them 90 days. If they don't pay, sell the debt or take it legal.
  • HarrietJones 12y ago
    On the mental anguish. You need to leave this. There's no place for revenge or warning other people. Try to think of it as a business deal only. Doing this will make your life worse. Every decision you make should be rational. If you can't get the money back, you need to write off the debt and walk away. This was your error, and you've learnt from it.
  • deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  • adtruth 12y ago
    Sorry, I should have been clearer. Four years ago I worked with him on Project A. Project A never got funded and died after our dispute. The 2/3 email relates to Project A. However, while Project A was in progress, he presented it as his own work to land himself a job as an investor, and then used that to land himself a seed round for a tangentially related but materially different Project B years later. I make no claims for the funding he received from Project B -- it's just bothersome that he earned it off of my back (to a degree).
    • throwaway22mar 12y ago
      dude. this new comment clears up a LOT. based on this you are 100% suffering from sour grapes, because whereas HE was able to "present project A" in a certain light to get a totally separate gig and build a totally separate business, you yourself do not have adtruth_b that you were able to pitch to investors by mischaracterizing the success of Project A as a big success, and getting your own seed round for a tangentally related but materially different business. you're just jealous that he is smoother than you!!
• thrownaway122 12y ago
  Consult a lawyer.
• chesterbr 12y ago
  If you really allow me to be honest (and a bit harsh): you seem to believe to be entitled with life being a fair game. It isn't. Human nature is very diversified, and there will be those that won't give a damn to what you consider to be ethical behavior. I can understand that - it took me some time to find the balance between protecting myself against ill-intentioned people while not shutting everyone out. You seem to worry on the long story with the fact that the "bad guy" is still on the loose. I'll be honest again: this seems like you're unconsciously trying to find justification to get even with him - after all, preventing other from "potentially fall in to his trap" sounds way better than, say, "get personal justice" - or (let's face it) "revenge". Sorry for the hard tone, but I think mellowing the words will lead you to wasting time, money (and possibly reputation - let's remember how good this person is on that) on a rotten past which already taught you valuable lessons that seem to have helped on your career. Instead, focus on your present and future. Life is short, and you certainly have people and endeavors that deserve your attention. Move on and have a great day!
• pvnick 12y ago
  I am so sorry that you were screwed like that. It sucks, but look at it this way: you learned a valuable lesson that likely helped you in your career, and the other guy has to sleep at night with the knowledge of the people he screwed weighing on his conscience. At this point your negative feelings are hurting only yourself, not him. You may even find it helpful to push yourself to forgive him for his misdeed - he did it from a place of insecurity and weakness, and finding it in yourself to forgive him comes from a place of courage and strength. Resentment is poisonous, and in my time on earth I have found that revenge offers no comfort, but that healing comes only from forgiveness.
• rday 12y ago
  The good news is you are in great company! We all get conned at some point. Some of us (me) multiple times. You're paying for your education, whether you are in school or not. Just make sure you get good use out of your experience in the future. > continues to be successful despite his behavior I'd argue the use of the word "despite".
• patio11 12y ago
  A company owes you money. The usual way to get it from them is to send them an invoice (or other written formal demand for money). There exist interesting hypothetical questions as to what happens after you send them an invoice if they refuse to pay it. A very highly probable outcome, though, is that two months from now you get a very thin envelope in the mail with a check in it. Supposing you don't get the check and need to ask interesting hypothetical questions: these questions can be answered by a profession of specialized letter writers, at least one of whom practices in your town. Given copies of your emails they can write all of the letters required to get you a high-four figure check. It will likely run you low three figures to low four figures. Don't think of them like your representatives in a stressful court case, because it is 99.54% likely that there will be no court case -- think of them as highly trained specialists in letter writing, with high tolerances for both stress and tedium, who happily sell letters to almost anyone who asks for one. Send the invoice. This has been equally true for 48 of the last 48 months. Separately: the tech industry has an unsavory individual in it. Bad news: the world is lousy with them. This particular one is distinguished in your memory mostly because he had bad dealings with you. If your goal is decreasing the amount of unsavory business dealings in the world, you'll be far more effective by making it a point from now until your dying day to always tell young freelancers "ALWAYS GET A CONTRACT" rather than spending an iota of mental energy on this guy.
  • throwaway22mar 12y ago
    this is good advice, and "a contract" (as opposed to some conversation) can be as brief as an unambiguous 1-sentence email summarizing the agreement and asking for confirmation by reply, and then that reply. this is more practical than legal advice, and I haven't had trouble with it. do bear in mind that the main reason for this is that your client might have a different memory than you. memories fade - get it in writing ASAP, and ask for a confirmation.
  • adtruth 12y ago
    Thanks for your input. I did send an invoice four years ago, but he ignored it. Another complicating factor is that the project (and company) is long dead. My next step, as many have suggested as well, is likely to consult a professional of specialized letter writers. > [make] it a point from now until your dying day to always tell young freelancers "ALWAYS GET A CONTRACT" Definitely. I have been doing this ever since.
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• hababababalu 12y ago
  I would, at least, publicly expose that guy so other people could find him on Google before accepting contract. You don't need to provide your real name.
• yetanotheracc 12y ago
  Well, move on mentally (you are a better person etc.). But one might argue that it is your duty not to let it go, for the sake of the system (i.e. others). How about: 1. Send the client a non-aggressive email reminding them of the facts and asking for the payment + interest. Do not make any threats. 2. Find out (e.g. contact a local lawyer) about the admissibility in court of emails that you have. You need to prove that the client did actually send them. Find any other circumstantial evidence (code, phone calls) you have that argues for the authenticity of those emails. 3. If it works that way in your jurisdiction, argue that they acted in bad faith to claim damages. 4. Likely not doable, but if you can argue that they did not intend to pay from the beginning, get them accused of fraud. All that would work where I live overseas, I do not know if it will work where you live.
• UweSchmidt 12y ago
  Let it go.
• sebastianconcpt 12y ago
  Why do you think that being El Zorro is more important than your next move in business and family? Are not you planning to be a better investor and guy to have arround? If so, have in mind that what you are fantasazing with is going to put your mind in a mental state of war draining huge ammounts of time and energy that will not be dedicated to more positive projects. As investor I would raise many flags if I have you in my fund because I don't want to fund any personal war for whatever reason it might be declared
  • adtruth 12y ago
    This is true. It is a problem that this is taking up so much unwarranted space in my mind. But that's why I finally wrote about it and am seeking advice. To play devil's advocate, wouldn't it also be a red flag to have someone in your fund who simply rolls over and gives up when they have been clearly wronged?
    • sebastianconcpt 12y ago
      You did well in exposing this to other's so you don't get trapped in your own perception. Hats off to that. You were wronged, no question about that. What I'm trying to show you is that you are not in lack of reasons to engage in such a thing. But in the other hand you have even better reasons not to. Is not about swallowing it, is about raising you to a higher level were you not only not need to worry about that anymore but you can be even grateful that you learned the lessons that experience had teached you. There are lots of good things waiting for you ahead if you make the space for them to come. So I'd suggest that life will be better if you don't try to be Batman and you make room for more positive things. Following your metaphor, the devil will love to play with you in court but he cannot be part of your life if you don't give him permission
      • sebastianconcpt 12y ago
        I've remembered a technique I've learned somewhere that might be of use to you these days. This is good for when you are under some kind of pressure to make a decision that is not exactly peaceful: when in doubt, don't act. Don't let your emotional drive your decisions. If you want to go serious in making a decision about this, I'd risk to say that this is the book your future self would like you to have read now: http://heathbrothers.com/books/decisive/ http://heathbrothers.com/books/decisive/
• runarb 12y ago
  Are you located in the us? In many jurisdictions you unfortunately lose your claim if you do not try to collect it, and continue to try to collect it, within a certain time. If you have not tried to collect it this past 4 years this may be a major hurdle in doing so now.
  • adtruth 12y ago
    I live in a US state where the deadline to bring breach of contract claims is six years.
• atlantic 12y ago
  What you could have done from the beginning was to sell on the debt to a debt collection company. It's something you can still do now, and you will sleep easy in the knowledge that the collectors will not let the matter rest until they get their due. Note also that the threat of selling a debt is often much more effective than that of legal action.
• clarkevans 12y ago
  The professional delegation of this issue to a Lawyer can be your closure. This is when your emotional anguish ends -- after that, it's no longer personal. Sure, you'll pay $600-$900 for the consultation plus a % contingency fee, and one hour to explain the issue. However, the moment you hand it over to your council, it's settled. The Lawyer will draft the invoice reminder, and a scary advisory that it's a bad idea to build a business upon stolen intellectual property and know-how. They will follow up directly with the CFO of the organization, professional to professional. It might cause the CFO to have a meeting to discuss the risks of not paying. The lawyer may decide to play a short or a long game. They may decide that it's simply not worth it to pursue further. In any case, once it's delegated, it's their professional opinion, and you accept it. In this way, you've done what you can, and you've moved on with your life. If you get a check in the mail a few months (or years) later, great. If the concern about a check arriving in the future causes you anxiety, this one is also easy to solve, tell your attorney that the beneficiary of any money extracted is the local food bank. Then it's closed. You move on.
  • adtruth 12y ago
    Thanks. I'm starting to feel like, as you mention, I need to at least go through the legal motions to feel like I've done everything I can.
• cowpig 12y ago
  In the poker community, nobody ever writes a contract for anything, but people typically still pay off their debts. One strategy for dealing with outliers that has shown success is creating a website like this: http://www.stevenwareisathief.com/ http://www.stevenwareisathief.com/ People don't like it when you can google their name to learn about their misdeeds, and tend to feel their reputations are worth paying off their debts.
• quipp 12y ago
  Chalk it up to life experience. You should always have a contract even a simple hand written one is better than nothing. While you maybe getting screwed over you still, imho, need to take some personal accountability for not managing your business affairs. At least enough to the degree that permits you to let it go emotionally. Also, how much money are we really talking about here? A few months work at just out of school wages? Seems to me like that's peanuts compared to real cost it has taken being on your mind over the years.
• level09 12y ago
  Anger/Regret are a plain waste of time, if you no longer need the money, move on. life is random.
• monicazmf 12y ago
  You cannot control what comes your way (and in all honesty, being a freelancer myself, I totally feel where you're coming from with this bad experience), but you can surely learn to maximise your reaction to it. I lost any rights I had for a startup I built, managed and worked my a## for, for the past 3 years, so I know what loss is. But regardless of the situation, you have to remember that moving on is the key and the only way to do that is to let go of what you cannot change. The simplest way to understand "why?" is to think of it like this: if you keep wasting time and consuming your energy with negative thoughts, instead of focusing on what is good and productive for your own sake, just to try and shake the ground of the guy's feet, all you'll end up doing is giving him an extra hand in stopping you from your tracks. Don't let him do that, own your thoughts and actions and direct them towards the only thing that really matters: your own progress and evolution. And don't worry about it: there is a universal balance in place, and it has nothing to do with religion or faith, just with the logical assumption that, if you're a person that screws people to get what they want, eventually, you'll meet someone smarter than you to screw you for their own good. Knowing that should help you focus and leave the screwing part for someone out there, whose role in paying this guy back, hasn't yet been consumed. Yours has. Keep walking!