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I pray for the same reason the late C.S. Lewis prayed: "I pray because I can’t help myself. I pray because I’m helpless. I pray because the need flows out

by milesf 12y ago

I pray for the same reason the late C.S. Lewis prayed: "I pray because I can’t help myself. I pray because I’m helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn’t change God, it changes me." - CS Lewis I know it might tick some people off that I mention prayer in a thread about meditation, but I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want. All I ask is they respect my right to believe whatever I want.

NhanH 12y ago
Is praying (categorically) similar meditation though? I thought praying would be more equivalent to personal introspection time (ie. writing a journal/ diary, or just simply sit back and thinking about your day). It's definitely a great thing to be doing, but I didn't think it was quite the same as meditation.
- milesf 12y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation#Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation#Christianity
jwdunne 12y ago
I think there's a bit of crossover with prayer so it wouldn't be fair to give you flak because of the association. For example, if you're reciting a typical prayer, e.g the Our Father, you're focusing your mind on one thing. To dedicate to the prayer, you can't just shut other thoughts out, you must acknowledge and return to the prayer. I can some of the same benefits. In free flow prayer, I guess you're also acknowledging thoughts as they come and focusing on doing that. These may be thoughts that come from deep-seated emotions, perhaps thoughts that you typically wouldn't or couldn't discuss with others. I don't practice meditation religiously, nor do am I dedicated to prayer, but I have done both and both have been therapeutic. It seems wrong to find fault in what you're doing because of your beliefs when the process is essentially very similar, if not the same.
- milesf 12y ago
  I know Christianity is a very touchy subject for many people. It's easy to find lots of examples of the gulf between orthodoxy and orthopraxy in many people's lives. But I'm not so much interested in where a person is at in their lives, as much as I'm interested in the delta - the change - over time. Prayer, over time, changes me. I need to change. C.S. Lewis was a hero of mine. An Atheist for a good chunk of his life, he became a Christian and went on to write a lot of great stuff. The fact that he and J.R.R. Tolkien were friends is pretty cool too :)
  - philsnow 12y ago
    G K Chesterton was also a convert (edit: to Catholicism) and extremely prolific writer, be sure to check out his work if you haven't had a chance yet. I re-read Manalive every year or so.
- philsnow 12y ago
  The Hail Mary and, by extension, the Rosary, are often considered "meditative prayer" because the Hail Mary is so short that its recitation becomes muscle memory after only a short while.
robbrown451 12y ago
I'm personally big on the Serenity Prayer: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. Total atheist, so maybe I should replace the word "God" with "Brain" or something.
- TheLarch 12y ago
  You could quote Epictetus instead. He talks quite a bit about that http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html
  - robbrown451 12y ago
    Or, the tldr; version, i.e. the Serenity Prayer. :)
comrh 12y ago
Wow great quote. I think it would be narrow minded to not consider prayer a form of meditation. I know people who would describe a wide array of nontraditional activities as "meditation" as well: skiing, playing an instrument, driving, weight lifting, yard work. Surely prayer has a place too.
- philsnow 12y ago
  > weight lifting I don't know too much about Crossfit but the impression I've always had is that it's the polar opposite of careful, mindful, "correct" lifting.
  - throwmeunder 12y ago
    The problem here is the equivalence between weight lifting and crossfit. Within weightlifting and powerlifting circles crossfit is perceived as an abomination and something that should be killed. The main issue here is the culture surrounding the crossfit movement, which is what you've already observed. Note that I've said nothing about crossfit as an idea in and itself. And to the point about weightlifting being a form of meditation - it absolutely is. Just as a thought exercise - think of a some restriction you have had. Be it going to bed early, getting up early, drinking less, eating less, doing something, etc. That's the temptation with breaking form - it's usually super easy to break your form and that's the thing you have to mindfully control. Repeating cues and having that mind-body connection. That really trains your focus. Then you have the burden of lifting the weight when you can no longer see or think. Every set, every rep you have to do something incredibly pointless - it has no immediate effects, no one is forcing you and the only reason is because you want to. But that thing is incredibly hard and the alternative is just not doing it. I'm sure you've been faced with a tough decision or choice that you must make and you wanted to just not make it. At a point lifting is choosing to face that decision over and over and over again - it's not just a physical exercise it becomes a huge mental exercise as well. Everyone has that story when you didn't see what weight you put on the bar and you just made a 10% PR when you've been struggling with the previous weight for months. Usually when being at your maximum when performing an exercise(squat, deadlift, sprinting, etc.) all extraneous thoughts disappear, you focus is on the movement, your thoughts become a tad slower, and your will is tested all the time. There's a very similar sensation when meditating and I've felt that also when focusing on a problem or riding a bike. Also the shouting and getting angry is a mix of getting your body ready and focusing at the task at hand - a bit similar to the chants or music during meditation(not really a fan of that tbh but some people swear by it - ambiguous on purpose). Sometimes when warming up or just during submaximal sets, thoughts just come and go and you are definitely there doing the work and thinking them and yet you're on the sidelines calm, relaxed and observing yourself and your mind. It's a bit weird and I maybe gave a crappy description but that's my experience with lifting and meditation.

by milesf 12y ago

NhanH 12y ago

Is praying (categorically) similar meditation though? I thought praying would be more equivalent to personal introspection time (ie. writing a journal/ diary, or just simply sit back and thinking about your day). It's definitely a great thing to be doing, but I didn't think it was quite the same as meditation.

milesf 12y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation#Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation#Christianity

jwdunne 12y ago

I think there's a bit of crossover with prayer so it wouldn't be fair to give you flak because of the association. For example, if you're reciting a typical prayer, e.g the Our Father, you're focusing your mind on one thing. To dedicate to the prayer, you can't just shut other thoughts out, you must acknowledge and return to the prayer. I can some of the same benefits. In free flow prayer, I guess you're also acknowledging thoughts as they come and focusing on doing that. These may be thoughts that come from deep-seated emotions, perhaps thoughts that you typically wouldn't or couldn't discuss with others. I don't practice meditation religiously, nor do am I dedicated to prayer, but I have done both and both have been therapeutic. It seems wrong to find fault in what you're doing because of your beliefs when the process is essentially very similar, if not the same.

milesf 12y ago
I know Christianity is a very touchy subject for many people. It's easy to find lots of examples of the gulf between orthodoxy and orthopraxy in many people's lives. But I'm not so much interested in where a person is at in their lives, as much as I'm interested in the delta - the change - over time. Prayer, over time, changes me. I need to change. C.S. Lewis was a hero of mine. An Atheist for a good chunk of his life, he became a Christian and went on to write a lot of great stuff. The fact that he and J.R.R. Tolkien were friends is pretty cool too :)
- philsnow 12y ago
  G K Chesterton was also a convert (edit: to Catholicism) and extremely prolific writer, be sure to check out his work if you haven't had a chance yet. I re-read Manalive every year or so.
philsnow 12y ago
The Hail Mary and, by extension, the Rosary, are often considered "meditative prayer" because the Hail Mary is so short that its recitation becomes muscle memory after only a short while.

robbrown451 12y ago

I'm personally big on the Serenity Prayer: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. Total atheist, so maybe I should replace the word "God" with "Brain" or something.

TheLarch 12y ago
You could quote Epictetus instead. He talks quite a bit about that http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html
- robbrown451 12y ago
  Or, the tldr; version, i.e. the Serenity Prayer. :)

comrh 12y ago

Wow great quote. I think it would be narrow minded to not consider prayer a form of meditation. I know people who would describe a wide array of nontraditional activities as "meditation" as well: skiing, playing an instrument, driving, weight lifting, yard work. Surely prayer has a place too.

philsnow 12y ago
> weight lifting I don't know too much about Crossfit but the impression I've always had is that it's the polar opposite of careful, mindful, "correct" lifting.
- throwmeunder 12y ago
  The problem here is the equivalence between weight lifting and crossfit. Within weightlifting and powerlifting circles crossfit is perceived as an abomination and something that should be killed. The main issue here is the culture surrounding the crossfit movement, which is what you've already observed. Note that I've said nothing about crossfit as an idea in and itself. And to the point about weightlifting being a form of meditation - it absolutely is. Just as a thought exercise - think of a some restriction you have had. Be it going to bed early, getting up early, drinking less, eating less, doing something, etc. That's the temptation with breaking form - it's usually super easy to break your form and that's the thing you have to mindfully control. Repeating cues and having that mind-body connection. That really trains your focus. Then you have the burden of lifting the weight when you can no longer see or think. Every set, every rep you have to do something incredibly pointless - it has no immediate effects, no one is forcing you and the only reason is because you want to. But that thing is incredibly hard and the alternative is just not doing it. I'm sure you've been faced with a tough decision or choice that you must make and you wanted to just not make it. At a point lifting is choosing to face that decision over and over and over again - it's not just a physical exercise it becomes a huge mental exercise as well. Everyone has that story when you didn't see what weight you put on the bar and you just made a 10% PR when you've been struggling with the previous weight for months. Usually when being at your maximum when performing an exercise(squat, deadlift, sprinting, etc.) all extraneous thoughts disappear, you focus is on the movement, your thoughts become a tad slower, and your will is tested all the time. There's a very similar sensation when meditating and I've felt that also when focusing on a problem or riding a bike. Also the shouting and getting angry is a mix of getting your body ready and focusing at the task at hand - a bit similar to the chants or music during meditation(not really a fan of that tbh but some people swear by it - ambiguous on purpose). Sometimes when warming up or just during submaximal sets, thoughts just come and go and you are definitely there doing the work and thinking them and yet you're on the sidelines calm, relaxed and observing yourself and your mind. It's a bit weird and I maybe gave a crappy description but that's my experience with lifting and meditation.