4 ms·

In both cases it was do or die. Right now is do or ... meh.

Retra 12y ago
I wouldn't be wholly surprised if the entire point of the F35 is to make money off of it. Either by selling it to foreign countries, or by exploiting the large influx of tax money. If that was your goal, it is win-win, no matter if the project fails. And that's where I'd peg the fundamental problem.
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  In a way, maybe. Defense contractors have figured out that they need to distribute facilities into numerous congressional districts.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  I agree. F-35 seems to be developed to make money and redistribute political power. The atomic bomb was developed to make an atomic bomb. See the subtle difference in these two sentences? And it works with so many companies today as well. That's why I'm a big fan of Tesla and SpaceX - because they build electric cars so that there are electric cars. They build rockets so that humans can go to Mars. Many other companies in these sectors are the toilet-paper type: they develop electric cars to make money on people buying them. They develop rockets to make money on companies buying launch services. It's the difference of having money as an instrumental vs. terminal goal.
Shalomm 12y ago
Do or die? I'm not sure. Neither Apollo nor Manhattan were do-or-die situations (for the US). Maybe "First-system" vs "Second-system syndrome" is the difference? Apollo and Manhattan were definitely "First systems". Bradley APC and F-35 are classic "Second systems", suffering from second-system syndrome [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_system_syndrome#The_second-system_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_system_syndrome#The_sec...
- venomsnake 12y ago
  In the times they were conceived they were. A different european theater would have made nukes absolutely needed at least as deterrent. And US urgently needed to catch up in the space race - space is very efficient way to drop nuke on someone.
  - leoc 12y ago
    IIRC it was increasingly unlikely that the Axis could actually win a conventional war in Europe during the period of the Manhattan Project. The big fear was that Germany could develop its own atomic bomb first.
    - Spooky23 12y ago
      At the start of the project, the Germans were still advancing through the Soviet Union, and the Solomon Islands were still actively contested. U-Boats were doing a number on convoys. Victory over Germany wasn't a sure thing until late 1944. The fact that U.S. leadership had the foresight to make a massive investment in the Manhattan Project at a time where half of the US Navy's carriers were out of action speaks a lot of them.
    - tsotha 12y ago
      Yes, that was the driver. We knew they were trying to build such a device, but we didn't know how far along they were. Given the German lead in other war technology areas (like guided missiles), it would have been foolish to underestimate them. Of course the Germans were lucky to have lost before the bomb was ready. Otherwise instead instead of memorials at Hiroshima and Nagasaki they might be at Munich and Hamburg.

Retra 12y ago

I wouldn't be wholly surprised if the entire point of the F35 is to make money off of it. Either by selling it to foreign countries, or by exploiting the large influx of tax money. If that was your goal, it is win-win, no matter if the project fails. And that's where I'd peg the fundamental problem.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
In a way, maybe. Defense contractors have figured out that they need to distribute facilities into numerous congressional districts.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
I agree. F-35 seems to be developed to make money and redistribute political power. The atomic bomb was developed to make an atomic bomb. See the subtle difference in these two sentences? And it works with so many companies today as well. That's why I'm a big fan of Tesla and SpaceX - because they build electric cars so that there are electric cars. They build rockets so that humans can go to Mars. Many other companies in these sectors are the toilet-paper type: they develop electric cars to make money on people buying them. They develop rockets to make money on companies buying launch services. It's the difference of having money as an instrumental vs. terminal goal.

Shalomm 12y ago

Do or die? I'm not sure. Neither Apollo nor Manhattan were do-or-die situations (for the US). Maybe "First-system" vs "Second-system syndrome" is the difference? Apollo and Manhattan were definitely "First systems". Bradley APC and F-35 are classic "Second systems", suffering from second-system syndrome [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_system_syndrome#The_second-system_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_system_syndrome#The_sec...

venomsnake 12y ago
In the times they were conceived they were. A different european theater would have made nukes absolutely needed at least as deterrent. And US urgently needed to catch up in the space race - space is very efficient way to drop nuke on someone.
- leoc 12y ago
  IIRC it was increasingly unlikely that the Axis could actually win a conventional war in Europe during the period of the Manhattan Project. The big fear was that Germany could develop its own atomic bomb first.
  - Spooky23 12y ago
    At the start of the project, the Germans were still advancing through the Soviet Union, and the Solomon Islands were still actively contested. U-Boats were doing a number on convoys. Victory over Germany wasn't a sure thing until late 1944. The fact that U.S. leadership had the foresight to make a massive investment in the Manhattan Project at a time where half of the US Navy's carriers were out of action speaks a lot of them.
  - tsotha 12y ago
    Yes, that was the driver. We knew they were trying to build such a device, but we didn't know how far along they were. Given the German lead in other war technology areas (like guided missiles), it would have been foolish to underestimate them. Of course the Germans were lucky to have lost before the bomb was ready. Otherwise instead instead of memorials at Hiroshima and Nagasaki they might be at Munich and Hamburg.