4 ms·

Although I believe everything you say, I'd like to provide a counterpoint. I think I'm a pretty good programmer and I've got a reasonable body of work on GitHu

by philbo 12y ago

Although I believe everything you say, I'd like to provide a counterpoint. I think I'm a pretty good programmer and I've got a reasonable body of work on GitHub to back it up, but I've often failed technical interviews because I go to pieces under the pressure and my brain just stops working. I've been a dev for > 15 years but if anything I've got worse at interviewing over time. I only apply for positions that I genuinely think I'd be good at, but the technical interview gives the impression that I'm a clueless idiot. From my (admittedly selfish) point of view, the approach proposed in the article seems much better than the process you describe here.

guelo 12y ago
You should spend time improving your live performance skills. It comes in handy for more than just job interviews.
- sanderjd 12y ago
  I think you're correct, but I also think it's a real shame that live performance skills are important to excel at a career that has nothing to do with live performance. I wonder if there are any careers where you only have to get good at the thing you're doing rather than a bunch of meta-things.
  - palimpsests 12y ago
    Live performance skills are most absolutely unnecessary to excel in development; this comment thread is discussing how certain people can improve their interviewing performance through the practice of being spontaneous and present. A very helpful trait that some people have naturally, and that others do not. I think it's great when the practice of some discipline or craft has beneficial effects in other areas of our our lives.
StevePerkins 12y ago
Personally, I think (or at least hope!) that I'm pretty good at differentiating between nervousness vs. simply not having an answer. With the MVC example that I gave earlier, sometimes people fumble along and provide a lot of information even though they can't pull it together in any coherent way. Other times, they flat-out shrug and tell me that they don't know. Protip: I recommend saying something and at least making an attempt at the former. I like to ask people about side projects, and what is the latest interesting thing that they've been learning in their own time. However, my issue with the "Your-GitHub-Is-Your-Resume" nonsense is that it falls apart past the age of 30. Before I got married and had kids, I used to spend almost every waking moment of personal time (and about half of my employer's time, to be honest) working on areas of personal interest. I wrote a handful of minor open source frameworks that are too obsolete to be worth mentioning, a set of Java bindings to the wxWidget library, authored a book, and served as technical reviewer for a stack of other books. Then I got married, and became a father. Now, quite frankly, I don't do that anymore. I just can't. It isn't a matter of passion, it's a matter of physics. My GitHub account includes some small personal apps that I tinker with from time to time (e.g. a diet and exercise tracking application), but I would be MORTIFIED if someone thought that was a representative sample for job application purposes. It's a fairly trivial web app, that I could just as well have written 10 years ago. In fact, the type of work that you do later in your career really doesn't lend itself to showcasing in a small GitHub portfolio. You work on Node.js websites, with whichever client-side data binding framework is popular this week? Awesome, GitHub would be perfect for showcasing an example of that. But your most recent projects include integrating a dozen microservices with an AMQP broker and Apache Camel, or using Spark to crawl a mass of data in a Cassandra cluster? Large scale development just doesn't lend itself as well to representation in a personal GitHub portfolio. So side projects may be a useful screening tool with junior level candidates for web developer positions, but I think it's a naive suggestion for more senior level candidates in more complex domains. The notion of having an on-site coding exercise is better in my opinion, but that's not a panacea either. Anything worthwhile would probably take a matter of hours, turning your on-site interview into an all day affair for which the candidate would have to take a full day of PTO from their current job. There is NO WAY that I would submit to something like that unless I was already very far into the recruiting process with a particular company, and very much interested in working there already. You're not going to reach that point unless you already have technical screening tools in an earlier stage of the process, so there you are right back at the original problem. I do agree with the article, as well as many of the comments here, that "whiteboard exercises" are a fairly pointless tool (e.g. "write a recursive function to traverse this tree", or "walk me through your process for guessing how many golf balls could fit in an airplane"). Even though my company does a bit of that too, I grumble about it and refuse to incorporate any of that into my stage of the process. However, almost all of the alternatives that I've heard suggested seem to be proposed by very young junior-level devs, who lack perspective on what their career path and mindset are going to look like 10 years down the line.
- snx 12y ago
  Thank you. There should more interviewers like you and i hope to be facing someone alike the next time i am on the applying side of the table.
SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago
I felt bad about my nervousness in interview situations too, so I started taking improv classes. Now interviews don't give me any performance anxiety at all; once you've performed in front of a large audience with no idea what you're going to say or do, it makes interviews a cakewalk. And remember, even though the primary skill you're interviewing for is coding, they are also testing you for communications ability. Being able to clearly and concisely explain what you're doing is at least as important as being able to get things done.
- jlees 12y ago
  I've been doing improv for 10+ years and had never realised this, but it may well be a large part of the reason why I don't get nervous in interviews. Thanks for helping me make the connection! Plus, as one other commenter points out elsewhere in this thread, once you've been on the other side of the table for a while, you get a much better idea of where your own strengths lie (and what you're up against, which can instil a lot more confidence than you might think!).
FireBeyond 12y ago
Try Toastmasters. Definitely something out of most people's comfort/familiarity, but works wonders for improving speaking talents.
rifung 12y ago
Hey I used to be in the same boat as you but recently I seem to have gotten over it and get lots of offers =D If you're interested, the way I got over it was by just accepting the fact the interview process is not perfect and in the end I have no idea what these people are looking for. That being the case, I just do my best and enjoy the fact I get to work on algorithmic questions usually much more interesting than what I would get to see while working. I guess I try to just have fun! It really seems like a lot of people freak out because they are afraid of rejection. I don't want to get stereotypical about how nerds are antisocial or whatever, but I definitely found that once I stopped caring whether I was going to get hired or not, I started doing and feeling a lot better. I actually started enjoying interviews because I get to see interesting questions, see what other people are working on, and because I am junior, learn about more technologies and why they decided to use them.

by philbo 12y ago

guelo 12y ago

You should spend time improving your live performance skills. It comes in handy for more than just job interviews.

sanderjd 12y ago
I think you're correct, but I also think it's a real shame that live performance skills are important to excel at a career that has nothing to do with live performance. I wonder if there are any careers where you only have to get good at the thing you're doing rather than a bunch of meta-things.
- palimpsests 12y ago
  Live performance skills are most absolutely unnecessary to excel in development; this comment thread is discussing how certain people can improve their interviewing performance through the practice of being spontaneous and present. A very helpful trait that some people have naturally, and that others do not. I think it's great when the practice of some discipline or craft has beneficial effects in other areas of our our lives.

StevePerkins 12y ago

Personally, I think (or at least hope!) that I'm pretty good at differentiating between nervousness vs. simply not having an answer. With the MVC example that I gave earlier, sometimes people fumble along and provide a lot of information even though they can't pull it together in any coherent way. Other times, they flat-out shrug and tell me that they don't know. Protip: I recommend saying something and at least making an attempt at the former. I like to ask people about side projects, and what is the latest interesting thing that they've been learning in their own time. However, my issue with the "Your-GitHub-Is-Your-Resume" nonsense is that it falls apart past the age of 30. Before I got married and had kids, I used to spend almost every waking moment of personal time (and about half of my employer's time, to be honest) working on areas of personal interest. I wrote a handful of minor open source frameworks that are too obsolete to be worth mentioning, a set of Java bindings to the wxWidget library, authored a book, and served as technical reviewer for a stack of other books. Then I got married, and became a father. Now, quite frankly, I don't do that anymore. I just can't. It isn't a matter of passion, it's a matter of physics. My GitHub account includes some small personal apps that I tinker with from time to time (e.g. a diet and exercise tracking application), but I would be MORTIFIED if someone thought that was a representative sample for job application purposes. It's a fairly trivial web app, that I could just as well have written 10 years ago. In fact, the type of work that you do later in your career really doesn't lend itself to showcasing in a small GitHub portfolio. You work on Node.js websites, with whichever client-side data binding framework is popular this week? Awesome, GitHub would be perfect for showcasing an example of that. But your most recent projects include integrating a dozen microservices with an AMQP broker and Apache Camel, or using Spark to crawl a mass of data in a Cassandra cluster? Large scale development just doesn't lend itself as well to representation in a personal GitHub portfolio. So side projects may be a useful screening tool with junior level candidates for web developer positions, but I think it's a naive suggestion for more senior level candidates in more complex domains. The notion of having an on-site coding exercise is better in my opinion, but that's not a panacea either. Anything worthwhile would probably take a matter of hours, turning your on-site interview into an all day affair for which the candidate would have to take a full day of PTO from their current job. There is NO WAY that I would submit to something like that unless I was already very far into the recruiting process with a particular company, and very much interested in working there already. You're not going to reach that point unless you already have technical screening tools in an earlier stage of the process, so there you are right back at the original problem. I do agree with the article, as well as many of the comments here, that "whiteboard exercises" are a fairly pointless tool (e.g. "write a recursive function to traverse this tree", or "walk me through your process for guessing how many golf balls could fit in an airplane"). Even though my company does a bit of that too, I grumble about it and refuse to incorporate any of that into my stage of the process. However, almost all of the alternatives that I've heard suggested seem to be proposed by very young junior-level devs, who lack perspective on what their career path and mindset are going to look like 10 years down the line.

snx 12y ago
Thank you. There should more interviewers like you and i hope to be facing someone alike the next time i am on the applying side of the table.

SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago

I felt bad about my nervousness in interview situations too, so I started taking improv classes. Now interviews don't give me any performance anxiety at all; once you've performed in front of a large audience with no idea what you're going to say or do, it makes interviews a cakewalk. And remember, even though the primary skill you're interviewing for is coding, they are also testing you for communications ability. Being able to clearly and concisely explain what you're doing is at least as important as being able to get things done.

jlees 12y ago
I've been doing improv for 10+ years and had never realised this, but it may well be a large part of the reason why I don't get nervous in interviews. Thanks for helping me make the connection! Plus, as one other commenter points out elsewhere in this thread, once you've been on the other side of the table for a while, you get a much better idea of where your own strengths lie (and what you're up against, which can instil a lot more confidence than you might think!).

FireBeyond 12y ago

Try Toastmasters. Definitely something out of most people's comfort/familiarity, but works wonders for improving speaking talents.

rifung 12y ago

Hey I used to be in the same boat as you but recently I seem to have gotten over it and get lots of offers =D If you're interested, the way I got over it was by just accepting the fact the interview process is not perfect and in the end I have no idea what these people are looking for. That being the case, I just do my best and enjoy the fact I get to work on algorithmic questions usually much more interesting than what I would get to see while working. I guess I try to just have fun! It really seems like a lot of people freak out because they are afraid of rejection. I don't want to get stereotypical about how nerds are antisocial or whatever, but I definitely found that once I stopped caring whether I was going to get hired or not, I started doing and feeling a lot better. I actually started enjoying interviews because I get to see interesting questions, see what other people are working on, and because I am junior, learn about more technologies and why they decided to use them.