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He'll regret it when he can't do math after he retires because of the encephalopathy he gets from repeated head trauma.

by rquantz 12y ago

cubano 12y ago
I have a hard time reconciling this statement with all the ex-NFL players I hear about starting successful businesses and broadcast careers. In fact, almost all the personalities on the FOX and CBS pre-game shows are ex-pros, and I find their abilities to reason and elucidate quite advanced, and they all admit to having many, many instances of head trauma in their careers.
- firebones 12y ago
  That's what, 10 personalities out of the 3130 "former members" who are in the NFLPA? Most of the pre-gamers also played skill positions (taking fewer of the play-in, play-out repetitive hits of linemen and linebackers), played for better teams (more protection for quarterbacks on winning teams than the losers), and had roles (primarily quarterbacks) where they were already selected for a higher baseline of cognition and intelligence. That's how I'd reconcile it. What you see on TV is not a random sampling, before you even get to the selection process of the networks to pick the best available.
- cjbprime 12y ago
  This is a textbook example of survivorship bias. The commentators you see on TV are healthy, because if they were not healthy then they wouldn't be on TV. It tells you nothing about the incidence of unhealthiness.
  - cubano 12y ago
    Fair enough, although the OP was a comment about the seemingly inevitability of CTE for this math-loving lineman, and my comment was nothing but a foil against that particular POV.
    - rquantz 12y ago
      Yes that's what I was saying. He definitely, without any hope reprieve, will absolutely have mush-brain when he retires. When I first joined HN, I found the literal-to-the-point-of-obtuseness attitude refreshing. But over time it has started to seem, well, obtuse.
xtrumanx 12y ago
I wondered how widespread encephalopathy was amongst football players and wound up on this[0] wikipedia page regarding the list of players with chronic traumatic encephalopathy. Didn't seem so much at first considering the number of players who've gone through the NFL but it was surprising how long I had to scroll to get through the list of players who are plantiffs in the lawsuit regarding concussion related injuries received while playing. The list is even incomplete and only contains less than half the actual number of players. Also, a paper[1] I found via wikipedia references estimated an encephalopathy prevalence rate of 3.7% (and that's a conservative estimate according to wikipedia). [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_players_with_chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_players_with_chroni... [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995699/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995699/
Dewie 12y ago
HN had a story about a former football player that is now homeless because of traumas sustained during his football career. People seemed to agree with that article. But apparently not this statement.
chernevik 12y ago
He's an offensive lineman. It wouldn't surprise me if there is less head trauma in that position than in others. They make contact with other players with less time for anyone to get to full speed. The guys they're hitting aren't generally going in exactly the opposite direction, the way defenders' targets are. That contact is mostly on the body. And they aren't targets the way ball carriers are. Also, they're some of the biggest guys on the field. That means they've got more neck muscle holding their head in place.
- thompo 12y ago
  linemen literally bash their heads together on every play. it would actually be a huge surprise to me if there was less head trauma at that position.
  - privong 12y ago
    I think it is more complicated than that, because the impact speed is important too. The linemen come at each other from close distances. So they may not build up as much speed, compared to a situation such as a linebacker with a running start towards a running back.
    - Retra 12y ago
      Impact speed is important to the effectiveness of a collision. That's why they train to maximize this speed. Saying "the speed isn't high" in a context where maximum speed is a goal isn't a very good argument for safety. I mean, if I were an exceptionally speedy, brick-wall linebacker, I wouldn't get kicked out for causing extra concussions, I'd be given trophies and expensive contracts.
      - privong 12y ago
        > Impact speed is important to the effectiveness of a collision. That's why they train to maximize this speed. Saying "the speed isn't high" in a context where maximum speed is a goal isn't a very good argument for safety. I think you are conflating speed and quickness. Offensive and defensive lines rely on quickness (i.e., acceleration) to beat the opposing team and make a play, while other collisions (e.g., tackling) often involve speed. I am not saying that linesmen should not be expected to sometimes suffer head trauma; I was just noting that how often a player runs into another player is not the only factor.
geographomics 12y ago
For the downvoters: this recent paper gives a thorough overview on the known effects of repeated head injury, and the currently available evidence: http://ge.tt/2Y9BoiC2 http://ge.tt/2Y9BoiC2 In summary, his choice of sport does increase the risk of neurodegenerative disease presenting as dementia in later life, and CTE in particular has a distinct neuropathology that distinguishes it from other presentations at autopsy.

He'll regret it when he can't do math after he retires because of the encephalopathy he gets from repeated head trauma.

by rquantz 12y ago

He'll regret it when he can't do math after he retires because of the encephalopathy he gets from repeated head trauma.

I have a hard time reconciling this statement with all the ex-NFL players I hear about starting successful businesses and broadcast careers. In fact, almost all the personalities on the FOX and CBS pre-game shows are ex-pros, and I find their abilities to reason and elucidate quite advanced, and they all admit to having many, many instances of head trauma in their careers.

firebones 12y ago
That's what, 10 personalities out of the 3130 "former members" who are in the NFLPA? Most of the pre-gamers also played skill positions (taking fewer of the play-in, play-out repetitive hits of linemen and linebackers), played for better teams (more protection for quarterbacks on winning teams than the losers), and had roles (primarily quarterbacks) where they were already selected for a higher baseline of cognition and intelligence. That's how I'd reconcile it. What you see on TV is not a random sampling, before you even get to the selection process of the networks to pick the best available.
cjbprime 12y ago
This is a textbook example of survivorship bias. The commentators you see on TV are healthy, because if they were not healthy then they wouldn't be on TV. It tells you nothing about the incidence of unhealthiness.
- cubano 12y ago
  Fair enough, although the OP was a comment about the seemingly inevitability of CTE for this math-loving lineman, and my comment was nothing but a foil against that particular POV.
  - rquantz 12y ago
    Yes that's what I was saying. He definitely, without any hope reprieve, will absolutely have mush-brain when he retires. When I first joined HN, I found the literal-to-the-point-of-obtuseness attitude refreshing. But over time it has started to seem, well, obtuse.

xtrumanx 12y ago

I wondered how widespread encephalopathy was amongst football players and wound up on this[0] wikipedia page regarding the list of players with chronic traumatic encephalopathy. Didn't seem so much at first considering the number of players who've gone through the NFL but it was surprising how long I had to scroll to get through the list of players who are plantiffs in the lawsuit regarding concussion related injuries received while playing. The list is even incomplete and only contains less than half the actual number of players. Also, a paper[1] I found via wikipedia references estimated an encephalopathy prevalence rate of 3.7% (and that's a conservative estimate according to wikipedia). [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_players_with_chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_players_with_chroni... [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995699/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995699/

Dewie 12y ago

HN had a story about a former football player that is now homeless because of traumas sustained during his football career. People seemed to agree with that article. But apparently not this statement.

chernevik 12y ago

He's an offensive lineman. It wouldn't surprise me if there is less head trauma in that position than in others. They make contact with other players with less time for anyone to get to full speed. The guys they're hitting aren't generally going in exactly the opposite direction, the way defenders' targets are. That contact is mostly on the body. And they aren't targets the way ball carriers are. Also, they're some of the biggest guys on the field. That means they've got more neck muscle holding their head in place.

thompo 12y ago
linemen literally bash their heads together on every play. it would actually be a huge surprise to me if there was less head trauma at that position.
- privong 12y ago
  I think it is more complicated than that, because the impact speed is important too. The linemen come at each other from close distances. So they may not build up as much speed, compared to a situation such as a linebacker with a running start towards a running back.
  - Retra 12y ago
    Impact speed is important to the effectiveness of a collision. That's why they train to maximize this speed. Saying "the speed isn't high" in a context where maximum speed is a goal isn't a very good argument for safety. I mean, if I were an exceptionally speedy, brick-wall linebacker, I wouldn't get kicked out for causing extra concussions, I'd be given trophies and expensive contracts.
    - privong 12y ago
      > Impact speed is important to the effectiveness of a collision. That's why they train to maximize this speed. Saying "the speed isn't high" in a context where maximum speed is a goal isn't a very good argument for safety. I think you are conflating speed and quickness. Offensive and defensive lines rely on quickness (i.e., acceleration) to beat the opposing team and make a play, while other collisions (e.g., tackling) often involve speed. I am not saying that linesmen should not be expected to sometimes suffer head trauma; I was just noting that how often a player runs into another player is not the only factor.

geographomics 12y ago

For the downvoters: this recent paper gives a thorough overview on the known effects of repeated head injury, and the currently available evidence: http://ge.tt/2Y9BoiC2 http://ge.tt/2Y9BoiC2 In summary, his choice of sport does increase the risk of neurodegenerative disease presenting as dementia in later life, and CTE in particular has a distinct neuropathology that distinguishes it from other presentations at autopsy.