6 ms·

Somewhat related: B&H, an electronics store in New York owned by Hasidic Jews not only closes its brick & mortar store on Saturdays, but its website as well: ht

Somewhat related: B&H, an electronics store in New York owned by Hasidic Jews not only closes its brick & mortar store on Saturdays, but its website as well: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/ http://www.bhphotovideo.com/ Screenshot for anyone looking at this after 8:30 EDT today: https://i.imgur.com/XvZHDXA.png https://i.imgur.com/XvZHDXA.png

mjs 12y ago
Do they actually explain on their website why they do this? I've spent some time in the past looking without success.
- bryondowd 12y ago
  Here's a theory. If the site had an issue, they would be unable to do anything about it that day. Could be too much of a liability, so they shut it down. Or maybe I'm applying too much thought to it.
  - ars 12y ago
    If that was all it was they could easily hire a non-Jew to monitor it.
    - morgante 12y ago
      You can't hire a non-Jew to specifically monitor it on the Sabbath.
      - ars 12y ago
        That's true. But you can hire him full time.
        kelnos 12y ago
        I wonder how that would work, though. In general the accepted work week is Monday through Friday, so even if you did hire/pay the person on a weekly/yearly basis, you'd still have to specifically say to them that they're required to work on the weekend, and thus the Sabbath. I wonder if that's ok or not...
        icebraining 12y ago
        You don't need to tell them to work, just to be on-call :)
kps 12y ago
Their main competitor, Adorama, is also owned by Hasidic Jews, but lets people file web orders, considering it sufficient to not processes those orders until later.
- ars 12y ago
  It's clear you are not allowed to transact business on the Shabbat. But is your computer allowed to? Not so clear. Different Rabbi's have ruled differently, that's why they are different. Some say don't take any transactions at all, other say it's fine to collect the info, but don't actually bill. Letting the computer serve web pages is fine though, computers don't have to keep the Shabbat. The issue of business is that it's really you collecting the money, not the computer.
  - ithkuil 12y ago
    I'm _I_ collecting the money when a third party (or automated process) deposits it on my bank account? It would be the equivalent of delegating that responsibility to a non-jew. I don't know how would that be ruled, but I remember reading that it's allowed to let non-jew servants perform tasks on the sabbath, though I have no idea if it's accepted by the Hasidics.
    - ars 12y ago
      > I'm _I_ collecting the money when a third party (or automated process) deposits it on my bank account? Yes. You don't have to physically touch it to own it. There is a concept of "clearing", once the money clears it's yours. The dispute is if it's enough to avoid clearing payments, or if you should avoid taking any orders altogether. > It would be the equivalent of delegating that responsibility to a non-jew. I don't know how would that be ruled, but I remember reading that it's allowed to let non-jew servants perform tasks on the sabbath, though I have no idea if it's accepted by the Hasidics. The rule there is not in dispute, Hasidics are the same as any other observant Jews. The rule is you can not pay a non-Jews to work specifically on Sabbath. However you can pay him to work, and let him decide when to do it, as long as you give enough time to complete the work not on the Sabbath, if he decides to work on the Sabbath that's none of your concern, he's not Jewish as is not required to keep the Sabbath. You can also pay by the week and then the payment is not for the Sabbath. Incidentally a slave (even a non-Jewish slave) is not allowed to work for you on Sabbath, also animals are not allowed to work for you. Computers however are not alive - automatic processes are unquestionably permitted. AI (if it's possible, which I don't think it is) will be very interesting.
shmerl 12y ago
I guess they do proper timezone detection?
- kelnos 12y ago
  They shouldn't need to. The issue is them accepting your order during their observance of the Sabbath. If you're in a different timezone and are still supposed to be observing the Sabbath (while the website's owners are no longer in their Sabbath window), they'll accept your order; you've violated the Sabbath, not them. (At least that'd be my interpretation based on my often-limited understanding; I'm not Jewish, so I'm hardly an authority.)
  - shmerl 12y ago
    I'm not sure if their automatic system accepting the order is a problem. It shouldn't be (no people are involved in any of it from their side). However they serving someone who is violating Shabbos at the same time is a problem (for both them enabling the violation, and the violator). And that's timezone dependent. See http://www.zomet.org.il/Eng/?CategoryID=199&ArticleID=53 http://www.zomet.org.il/Eng/?CategoryID=199&ArticleID=53
    - icebraining 12y ago
      But it's also dependent on whether the user is Jewish or not, no? And how can the computer know that?
      - shmerl 12y ago
        It is dependent, but it's easier to prevent all transactions in such case than trying to ask the user about it and rely on honest answer. Plus it would probably make it "moris ayin", i.e. the likelihood of violation to the observer which is a whole long subject on its own. I'm not an expert in the law however, so those who implement such systems would have to ask about it anyway.

mjs 12y ago

Do they actually explain on their website why they do this? I've spent some time in the past looking without success.

bryondowd 12y ago
Here's a theory. If the site had an issue, they would be unable to do anything about it that day. Could be too much of a liability, so they shut it down. Or maybe I'm applying too much thought to it.
- ars 12y ago
  If that was all it was they could easily hire a non-Jew to monitor it.
  - morgante 12y ago
    You can't hire a non-Jew to specifically monitor it on the Sabbath.
    - ars 12y ago
      That's true. But you can hire him full time.
      - kelnos 12y ago
        I wonder how that would work, though. In general the accepted work week is Monday through Friday, so even if you did hire/pay the person on a weekly/yearly basis, you'd still have to specifically say to them that they're required to work on the weekend, and thus the Sabbath. I wonder if that's ok or not...
        icebraining 12y ago
        You don't need to tell them to work, just to be on-call :)

kps 12y ago

Their main competitor, Adorama, is also owned by Hasidic Jews, but lets people file web orders, considering it sufficient to not processes those orders until later.

ars 12y ago
It's clear you are not allowed to transact business on the Shabbat. But is your computer allowed to? Not so clear. Different Rabbi's have ruled differently, that's why they are different. Some say don't take any transactions at all, other say it's fine to collect the info, but don't actually bill. Letting the computer serve web pages is fine though, computers don't have to keep the Shabbat. The issue of business is that it's really you collecting the money, not the computer.
- ithkuil 12y ago
  I'm _I_ collecting the money when a third party (or automated process) deposits it on my bank account? It would be the equivalent of delegating that responsibility to a non-jew. I don't know how would that be ruled, but I remember reading that it's allowed to let non-jew servants perform tasks on the sabbath, though I have no idea if it's accepted by the Hasidics.
  - ars 12y ago
    > I'm _I_ collecting the money when a third party (or automated process) deposits it on my bank account? Yes. You don't have to physically touch it to own it. There is a concept of "clearing", once the money clears it's yours. The dispute is if it's enough to avoid clearing payments, or if you should avoid taking any orders altogether. > It would be the equivalent of delegating that responsibility to a non-jew. I don't know how would that be ruled, but I remember reading that it's allowed to let non-jew servants perform tasks on the sabbath, though I have no idea if it's accepted by the Hasidics. The rule there is not in dispute, Hasidics are the same as any other observant Jews. The rule is you can not pay a non-Jews to work specifically on Sabbath. However you can pay him to work, and let him decide when to do it, as long as you give enough time to complete the work not on the Sabbath, if he decides to work on the Sabbath that's none of your concern, he's not Jewish as is not required to keep the Sabbath. You can also pay by the week and then the payment is not for the Sabbath. Incidentally a slave (even a non-Jewish slave) is not allowed to work for you on Sabbath, also animals are not allowed to work for you. Computers however are not alive - automatic processes are unquestionably permitted. AI (if it's possible, which I don't think it is) will be very interesting.

shmerl 12y ago

I guess they do proper timezone detection?

kelnos 12y ago
They shouldn't need to. The issue is them accepting your order during their observance of the Sabbath. If you're in a different timezone and are still supposed to be observing the Sabbath (while the website's owners are no longer in their Sabbath window), they'll accept your order; you've violated the Sabbath, not them. (At least that'd be my interpretation based on my often-limited understanding; I'm not Jewish, so I'm hardly an authority.)
- shmerl 12y ago
  I'm not sure if their automatic system accepting the order is a problem. It shouldn't be (no people are involved in any of it from their side). However they serving someone who is violating Shabbos at the same time is a problem (for both them enabling the violation, and the violator). And that's timezone dependent. See http://www.zomet.org.il/Eng/?CategoryID=199&ArticleID=53 http://www.zomet.org.il/Eng/?CategoryID=199&ArticleID=53
  - icebraining 12y ago
    But it's also dependent on whether the user is Jewish or not, no? And how can the computer know that?
    - shmerl 12y ago
      It is dependent, but it's easier to prevent all transactions in such case than trying to ask the user about it and rely on honest answer. Plus it would probably make it "moris ayin", i.e. the likelihood of violation to the observer which is a whole long subject on its own. I'm not an expert in the law however, so those who implement such systems would have to ask about it anyway.