6 ms·

>Regardless, my experience was that its only value is the placebo effect. If a substance actually does anything real, and there is potential for a pharmaceutica

by Lewton 12y ago

>Regardless, my experience was that its only value is the placebo effect. If a substance actually does anything real, and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription. For just about everything, the over-the-counter options consist of vitamins and quackery. So either blatantly break the law, or don't. Just a counter-point. Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute. It's not what you'd normally call a nootropic maybe, but having melatonin on hand has significantly improved my life Edit: oh. Yeah. Of course, Adrafinil is OTC in the US too and that's the prodrug for Modafinil. Definitely not placebo either

falcolas 12y ago
Prilosec as well. Works remarkably well, for an OTC solution.
diminoten 12y ago
> Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute. The Mayo Clinic's website doesn't quite feel as strongly as you do about Melatonin: > The hormone melatonin helps control your natural sleep-wake cycle. Some research suggests that melatonin supplements might be helpful in treating jet lag or reducing the time it takes to fall asleep — although the effect is typically mild. Side effects can include headache and daytime sleepiness. [0] Another page from Mayo Clinic's website: > Melatonin might also reduce the time it takes to fall asleep — although this effect is typically mild. [1] I wouldn't tout Melatonin as the great counterexample of a nootropic that's OTC, considering it's questionable value and limited long-term use. [0] - http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/adult-health/in-depth/sleep-aids/art-20047860?pg=2 [1] - http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/adult-health/expert-answers/melatonin-side-effects/faq-20057874
- Lewton 12y ago
  When compared to placebo, Melatonin has no significant side effects[0] [0]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278206/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278206/
- DanBC 12y ago
  The worst part about melatonin is the lack of regulation. When people test the pills available they often find different doses, or even no dose at all.
- nbouscal 12y ago
  I trust gwern's in-depth analysis significantly more than I trust a blurb from the Mayo Clinic: http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin
driverdan 12y ago
Melatonin and DHEA are hormones and are OTC. But just because they're OTC doesn't mean they should be taken lightly. Hormones are highly regulated in our bodies and taking extra can cause decreased natural production. Adrafinil is not OTC, it is unregulated. That means you can sell it in the "research chemical" grey market but not as a drug.
- hashmymustache 12y ago
  You have to distinguish hormonal regulatory mechanisms that are externally vs internally triggered if you're going to discuss decreased natural synthesis. Oral testosterone? Pituitary measures it and says to the testicles, "we're good here" and testicles atrophy. Oral prednisone? Pituitary says to adrenals "we're good" and adrenals shut down cortisol production. Melatonin, however, is externally regulated through blue light suppression. So taking it doesn't engage any feedback inhibition, it just increases blood concentration.
- gnaritas 12y ago
  > Hormones are highly regulated in our bodies and taking extra can cause decreased natural production. Normally true, but that doesn't apply to melatonin, it has no such down regulation mechanism.
coryl 12y ago
I have a weird experience with melatonin. It puts me out quickly, but I wake up about 4-5 hours later in a half drugged state. For the next few hours I'm awake but drowsy.
- FreeFull 12y ago
  Did you try going back to sleep after you wake up?
  - coryl 12y ago
    Yes but its very poor quality sleep, I'm tossing and turning and not sure whether I'm awake or asleep.
- nbouscal 12y ago
  If you haven't yet, I recommend experimenting with the dosage. Most companies sell melatonin in dramatically higher doses than is necessary. I take 300mcg, but often see it sold in doses an order of magnitude larger than that. Effective dose seems to vary somewhat widely from person to person.
  - coryl 12y ago
    I've been taking 1 or 2 5mg tablets. 2 tablets definitely seems like too much.
    - nbouscal 12y ago
      Yeah, 10mg is a crazy dose, even 5mg is far more than most people I know take. I would try out doses in the 100mcg-1mg range and see how they work.
      - collyw 12y ago
        Some people reckon that a lower dose (1mg) is more effective than 3 or 5mg. Its gotten a bit too popular, and there is tons of conflicting advice on using it.
archemike_ 12y ago
for someone who likes melatonin but wants something stronger to aid sleep that's not medication/pills I recommend valerian root, it'll put your right to sleep reset your stress, like clearing your bodies ram.
- tripzilch 12y ago
  Everything I've been able to find about valerian says that the effect is basically placebo. I got a bottle of (big-ish smelly and brown) valerian pills one time, really didn't do anything for me.

by Lewton 12y ago

falcolas 12y ago

Prilosec as well. Works remarkably well, for an OTC solution.

diminoten 12y ago

> Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute. The Mayo Clinic's website doesn't quite feel as strongly as you do about Melatonin: > The hormone melatonin helps control your natural sleep-wake cycle. Some research suggests that melatonin supplements might be helpful in treating jet lag or reducing the time it takes to fall asleep — although the effect is typically mild. Side effects can include headache and daytime sleepiness. [0] Another page from Mayo Clinic's website: > Melatonin might also reduce the time it takes to fall asleep — although this effect is typically mild. [1] I wouldn't tout Melatonin as the great counterexample of a nootropic that's OTC, considering it's questionable value and limited long-term use. [0] - http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/adult-health/in-depth/sleep-aids/art-20047860?pg=2 [1] - http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/adult-health/expert-answers/melatonin-side-effects/faq-20057874

Lewton 12y ago
When compared to placebo, Melatonin has no significant side effects[0] [0]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278206/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278206/
DanBC 12y ago
The worst part about melatonin is the lack of regulation. When people test the pills available they often find different doses, or even no dose at all.
nbouscal 12y ago
I trust gwern's in-depth analysis significantly more than I trust a blurb from the Mayo Clinic: http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin

driverdan 12y ago

Melatonin and DHEA are hormones and are OTC. But just because they're OTC doesn't mean they should be taken lightly. Hormones are highly regulated in our bodies and taking extra can cause decreased natural production. Adrafinil is not OTC, it is unregulated. That means you can sell it in the "research chemical" grey market but not as a drug.

hashmymustache 12y ago
You have to distinguish hormonal regulatory mechanisms that are externally vs internally triggered if you're going to discuss decreased natural synthesis. Oral testosterone? Pituitary measures it and says to the testicles, "we're good here" and testicles atrophy. Oral prednisone? Pituitary says to adrenals "we're good" and adrenals shut down cortisol production. Melatonin, however, is externally regulated through blue light suppression. So taking it doesn't engage any feedback inhibition, it just increases blood concentration.
gnaritas 12y ago
> Hormones are highly regulated in our bodies and taking extra can cause decreased natural production. Normally true, but that doesn't apply to melatonin, it has no such down regulation mechanism.

coryl 12y ago

I have a weird experience with melatonin. It puts me out quickly, but I wake up about 4-5 hours later in a half drugged state. For the next few hours I'm awake but drowsy.

FreeFull 12y ago
Did you try going back to sleep after you wake up?
- coryl 12y ago
  Yes but its very poor quality sleep, I'm tossing and turning and not sure whether I'm awake or asleep.
nbouscal 12y ago
If you haven't yet, I recommend experimenting with the dosage. Most companies sell melatonin in dramatically higher doses than is necessary. I take 300mcg, but often see it sold in doses an order of magnitude larger than that. Effective dose seems to vary somewhat widely from person to person.
- coryl 12y ago
  I've been taking 1 or 2 5mg tablets. 2 tablets definitely seems like too much.
  - nbouscal 12y ago
    Yeah, 10mg is a crazy dose, even 5mg is far more than most people I know take. I would try out doses in the 100mcg-1mg range and see how they work.
    - collyw 12y ago
      Some people reckon that a lower dose (1mg) is more effective than 3 or 5mg. Its gotten a bit too popular, and there is tons of conflicting advice on using it.

archemike_ 12y ago

for someone who likes melatonin but wants something stronger to aid sleep that's not medication/pills I recommend valerian root, it'll put your right to sleep reset your stress, like clearing your bodies ram.

tripzilch 12y ago
Everything I've been able to find about valerian says that the effect is basically placebo. I got a bottle of (big-ish smelly and brown) valerian pills one time, really didn't do anything for me.