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I'm curious why they didn't include the United States (or some other Western countries) as a reference point/baseline since FiveThirtyEight's audience, much lik

I'm curious why they didn't include the United States (or some other Western countries) as a reference point/baseline since FiveThirtyEight's audience, much like HackerNews, is probably mostly in Western countries...

iamcurious 12y ago
Just curious, do you consider Latin America western?
- joshuapants 12y ago
  While a broad definition of "the West" would include Latin America (not just geographically, but also due to its European colonial history), it is common to view Latin America as a separate entity from "the West."
  - timepiece 12y ago
    So it's an ethnocentric worldview, right?
    - joshuapants 12y ago
      Yes, the separation of west, east, and perhaps one or more additional categories is one based more on differences in cultural values and norms than purely geography.
      - timepiece 12y ago
        I was referring more specifically to the division lines you contrived between Europe/North America on one hand and Central and South America on the other hand even both more or less share the same values and ideals. So it can't be cultural, so it could be ethnocentric and therefore was my question for you.
        joshuapants 12y ago
        Are you using some new/nonstandard/uncommon use of "ethnocentric" that doesn't involve culture? I'm not sure if you're trying to subtly paint me as a racist, but it seems that way. Europe, North America, and Latin America are all very different in all but a few superficial ways, but I do find that Europe and North America are more like each other than either is like Latin America.
        sdm 12y ago
        > I do find that Europe and North America are more like each other than either is like Latin America. "Latin America" is very big area and it overlaps with North America. In my experience the most European-like country in the Americas is by far Argentina.
        joshuapants 12y ago
        I apologize for finding it easier to contrast "Latin America and North America" rather than "Latin America and North America minus the one part of North America that also happens to be Latin American." I thought my meaning was fairly clear. Europe and North America are very big places too. Both have regions with differing cultures to various extents, as well.
    - a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
      It's a North Atlanticist worldview.
    - slg 12y ago
      Probably more geopolitically than ethnocentric. I think due to lingering effects of the Cold War, the term "The West" has colloquially been associated with the original definition of "First World" and means any developed, democratic, capitalist countries (or more specifically those allied with NATO). In that sense, Australia is more western than most of Latin America. It is just like when we say "The South" in the US we are usually referring to the historical and political south (i.e. the Confederate States or more generally the Southeast). You will rarely if ever hear someone refer to somewhere west of Texas as The South.
  - soapdog 12y ago
    so in your etnocentric (and maybe outdated) point of view the west would only be USA, Canada and parts of Europe? Where does Japan, NZ and Australia fit in that world view because they are in the east but aligned politically with the west... I find extremely odd what passes in the concepts inside the minds of some readers here. "Broad definition of the west would include latin america", WTF! Most of the countries here are ex-colonies of European invaders. Most countries are dominated by capitalist interests with mostly democratic governments. What requirement countries such as Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Brazil, Chile, etc are missing? I wish people paid more attention to whats has been going around the world the past 50 years and got rid of silly outdated concepts of the west, the east and other useless labels.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - joshuapants 12y ago
      NZ and Australia share a European colonial heritage and are culturally aligned with other countries of "the West." Japan is somewhat westernized in terms of business, but overall aligns much more closely with "the East." These labels are frequently debated in light of recent cultural changes and geopolitical events. You will notice that in my comment I mentioned that Latin America can be (and often is) considered to be part of the West, but it is also common to include it in another category.
      - sdm 12y ago
        > NZ and Australia share a European colonial heritage and are culturally aligned with other countries of "the West." The same goes for pretty much all of Latin America. Remember, the majority of South Americans are white and steeped in European culture. In my experience it's only Americans that don't consider them part of the west -- often trying to ignore that they have followed every similar development processes and have very similar culture.
        _delirium 12y ago
        > the majority of South Americans are white and steeped in European culture This varies greatly between countries in South America, and often within regions of countries. Argentina is an example of a country where what you say is true, but it's somewhat unusual for the region, having killed or displaced most of the indigenous population, somewhat like happened in the United States. Many South American countries are a much a more complex mixture of ethnic and cultural descent. Often the upper classes are more white and more culturally European, while the lower classes are more indigenous and less culturally European. Many countries have active cultural and political conflicts between the these segments; for example Bolivia fairly recently elected its first non-white President (Evo Morales) after years of the minority white-European population forming the ruling class.
  - CalRobert 12y ago
    Huh, this is the first I've ever heard that idea professed. My understanding was that West and East correlated reasonably well to Occident and Orient, so the Americas, Europe, Africa as the west (Occidental), and Asia, Oceania, as the east (Orient), with "near east" being the middle east and "far east" being eastern Asia. Not sure how Australia fits in there. Geographically it's eastern but culturally it's western (though that pretty much came as a result of westerners kicking aboriginal people out of their home, so far as I'm aware).
    - chad_oliver 12y ago
      Australia and New Zealand are very much part of the West, because that label is far more about cultural and political alignment, rather than geography. New Zealand and Australia are just as 'European' as Canada or the USA.
    - zorked 12y ago
      In Latin America, Latin America is seen as part of "the West". In Europe and the US, "the West" is a different entity that includes only Europe and the US, Canada, Australia and NZ. Different things are meant by the terms though.
    - Crito 12y ago
      I believe that for several decades in the last century, "West" in English speaking countries became somewhat synonymous with "NATO". The "East"/"West" terminology was tainted by cold-war political language. I think that this map is a fairly accurate representation of what the typical American "world-view" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world#/media/File:Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world#/media/File:Clash... I don't mean to say that it is "correct" in any way, just that it fairly accurately encompasses how many Americans informally loosely categorize different nations/regions.
  - sdm 12y ago
    The common view is more that any liberal democracy is considered "the West". It doesn't have much to do with location.
  - soneca 12y ago
    What?? I am in Brazil and we all here consider us to be "in the west" even if a more follower profile than trend setting. Our culture and values are more aligned and influenced by Europe and USA than China, India, Japan, Russia.
- notnickwolf 12y ago
  Perhaps the dualistic East/Western modes of viewing the world aren't enough.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
  I would consider them part of the global south.
benologist 12y ago
The table actually scrolls and includes many countries, on OS X I had to click on it before it would. Australia is down -41%, although it may be an outlier because we have been a leader in making it hard to sell/market cigarettes, and they're very heavily taxed.

iamcurious 12y ago

Just curious, do you consider Latin America western?

joshuapants 12y ago
While a broad definition of "the West" would include Latin America (not just geographically, but also due to its European colonial history), it is common to view Latin America as a separate entity from "the West."
- timepiece 12y ago
  So it's an ethnocentric worldview, right?
  - joshuapants 12y ago
    Yes, the separation of west, east, and perhaps one or more additional categories is one based more on differences in cultural values and norms than purely geography.
    - timepiece 12y ago
      I was referring more specifically to the division lines you contrived between Europe/North America on one hand and Central and South America on the other hand even both more or less share the same values and ideals. So it can't be cultural, so it could be ethnocentric and therefore was my question for you.
      - joshuapants 12y ago
        Are you using some new/nonstandard/uncommon use of "ethnocentric" that doesn't involve culture? I'm not sure if you're trying to subtly paint me as a racist, but it seems that way. Europe, North America, and Latin America are all very different in all but a few superficial ways, but I do find that Europe and North America are more like each other than either is like Latin America.
        sdm 12y ago
        > I do find that Europe and North America are more like each other than either is like Latin America. "Latin America" is very big area and it overlaps with North America. In my experience the most European-like country in the Americas is by far Argentina.
        joshuapants 12y ago
        I apologize for finding it easier to contrast "Latin America and North America" rather than "Latin America and North America minus the one part of North America that also happens to be Latin American." I thought my meaning was fairly clear. Europe and North America are very big places too. Both have regions with differing cultures to various extents, as well.
  - a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
    It's a North Atlanticist worldview.
  - slg 12y ago
    Probably more geopolitically than ethnocentric. I think due to lingering effects of the Cold War, the term "The West" has colloquially been associated with the original definition of "First World" and means any developed, democratic, capitalist countries (or more specifically those allied with NATO). In that sense, Australia is more western than most of Latin America. It is just like when we say "The South" in the US we are usually referring to the historical and political south (i.e. the Confederate States or more generally the Southeast). You will rarely if ever hear someone refer to somewhere west of Texas as The South.
- soapdog 12y ago
  so in your etnocentric (and maybe outdated) point of view the west would only be USA, Canada and parts of Europe? Where does Japan, NZ and Australia fit in that world view because they are in the east but aligned politically with the west... I find extremely odd what passes in the concepts inside the minds of some readers here. "Broad definition of the west would include latin america", WTF! Most of the countries here are ex-colonies of European invaders. Most countries are dominated by capitalist interests with mostly democratic governments. What requirement countries such as Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Brazil, Chile, etc are missing? I wish people paid more attention to whats has been going around the world the past 50 years and got rid of silly outdated concepts of the west, the east and other useless labels.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - joshuapants 12y ago
    NZ and Australia share a European colonial heritage and are culturally aligned with other countries of "the West." Japan is somewhat westernized in terms of business, but overall aligns much more closely with "the East." These labels are frequently debated in light of recent cultural changes and geopolitical events. You will notice that in my comment I mentioned that Latin America can be (and often is) considered to be part of the West, but it is also common to include it in another category.
    - sdm 12y ago
      > NZ and Australia share a European colonial heritage and are culturally aligned with other countries of "the West." The same goes for pretty much all of Latin America. Remember, the majority of South Americans are white and steeped in European culture. In my experience it's only Americans that don't consider them part of the west -- often trying to ignore that they have followed every similar development processes and have very similar culture.
      - _delirium 12y ago
        > the majority of South Americans are white and steeped in European culture This varies greatly between countries in South America, and often within regions of countries. Argentina is an example of a country where what you say is true, but it's somewhat unusual for the region, having killed or displaced most of the indigenous population, somewhat like happened in the United States. Many South American countries are a much a more complex mixture of ethnic and cultural descent. Often the upper classes are more white and more culturally European, while the lower classes are more indigenous and less culturally European. Many countries have active cultural and political conflicts between the these segments; for example Bolivia fairly recently elected its first non-white President (Evo Morales) after years of the minority white-European population forming the ruling class.
- CalRobert 12y ago
  Huh, this is the first I've ever heard that idea professed. My understanding was that West and East correlated reasonably well to Occident and Orient, so the Americas, Europe, Africa as the west (Occidental), and Asia, Oceania, as the east (Orient), with "near east" being the middle east and "far east" being eastern Asia. Not sure how Australia fits in there. Geographically it's eastern but culturally it's western (though that pretty much came as a result of westerners kicking aboriginal people out of their home, so far as I'm aware).
  - chad_oliver 12y ago
    Australia and New Zealand are very much part of the West, because that label is far more about cultural and political alignment, rather than geography. New Zealand and Australia are just as 'European' as Canada or the USA.
  - zorked 12y ago
    In Latin America, Latin America is seen as part of "the West". In Europe and the US, "the West" is a different entity that includes only Europe and the US, Canada, Australia and NZ. Different things are meant by the terms though.
  - Crito 12y ago
    I believe that for several decades in the last century, "West" in English speaking countries became somewhat synonymous with "NATO". The "East"/"West" terminology was tainted by cold-war political language. I think that this map is a fairly accurate representation of what the typical American "world-view" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world#/media/File:Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world#/media/File:Clash... I don't mean to say that it is "correct" in any way, just that it fairly accurately encompasses how many Americans informally loosely categorize different nations/regions.
- sdm 12y ago
  The common view is more that any liberal democracy is considered "the West". It doesn't have much to do with location.
- soneca 12y ago
  What?? I am in Brazil and we all here consider us to be "in the west" even if a more follower profile than trend setting. Our culture and values are more aligned and influenced by Europe and USA than China, India, Japan, Russia.
notnickwolf 12y ago
Perhaps the dualistic East/Western modes of viewing the world aren't enough.
GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
I would consider them part of the global south.

benologist 12y ago

The table actually scrolls and includes many countries, on OS X I had to click on it before it would. Australia is down -41%, although it may be an outlier because we have been a leader in making it hard to sell/market cigarettes, and they're very heavily taxed.