6 ms·

Poor guy is going to hate life so much. The number of times he's going to hear "we can't do that because some person at some important level - a person that pro

Poor guy is going to hate life so much. The number of times he's going to hear "we can't do that because some person at some important level - a person that probably started as a clerk and has been promoted to high level security doesn't understand it, so... no." As someone who left federal government for private industry, I am shocked at just how much freedom I have to experiment. Thinking creatively is rewarded. I applaud the administration for attempting to get to this level... but they'll have to remove all the old tired government employees with the authority to say "no" before this plan will work.

sharkweek 12y ago
I have never worked for the federal government (or any level of government) so I could be commenting without the appropriate context here but I have worked at a massive (200K+ person) company before and it sounds just about the same as what you describe above. "We can't do anything about that" could have been on auto-reply from my boss's email.
- therealwill 12y ago
  Same thing happens in smaller companies too... My solution is to do it anyways. The people who say no? Fuck em, build it and if no one comes at least you KNOW that this company has too much bureaucracy to change and you should dump them. Programmers are modern day gods and we should start acting like it.
  - kelukelugames 12y ago
    I will have you know that my boss thinks I am a rockstar.
  - wetmore 12y ago
    We're not modern day gods.
    - freditup 12y ago
      Amen. We're actually very flawed, ordinary people who just happen to enjoy programming/computers.
    - toomuchtodo 12y ago
      More like kingmakers: http://thenewkingmakers.com/ http://thenewkingmakers.com/
  - themightykevdog 12y ago
    Someone has been reading too much Ayn Rand.
sjg007 12y ago
Well, except that they've hired an all star A team that does the work. They just need access to the data, that can be forced by the President.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  Actually, it probably can't, at least in most of the cases where it would matter. The President can get the ball rolling in some of those cases, but in others there may actually be an act of Congress required, or other bureaucratic hoops to jump through. The President is not the equivalent of the CEO of a private corporation. And like so many of the things around technology in government the last couple of years, this one is probably more for show than anything else.
rabbyte 12y ago
Seems like having people like Recordon join the ranks can only help that situation. Let's hope it does.
bottled_poe 12y ago
As government organisations typically do not compete with other organisations and are not driven by profits, the motivation for improvement is very unclear.
juletide 12y ago
While I understand where the skepticism comes from, I think it's overly pessimistic to think nothing's changed since your time in the government, or that Recordon won't be able to enact positive change. I've been really impressed with the quality of talent that USDS and 18F have been drawing, and with the quality of their output. While I'm sure there's still more friction than you'd see at a super-tiny private sector startup, I think everyone's aware that software/IT delievery needs to radically change, and there's a lot of smart, driven people who seem to be helping enact that change.
- nobleach 12y ago
  Full disclosure, I left in 2014. I watched the healthcare.gov debacle from inside the fence. I was told "no" on a daily basis because I had the audacity to hope and dream. I really do wish the absolute best for this pioneer. I hope I'm completely wrong and people LISTEN to his advisement.
remarkEon 12y ago
As someone who's about to leave government (DoD) I'm looking forward to the opportunity to experiment. That being said, your description is pretty accurate. Simple things like designing a more efficient workflow becomes something that metastasizes into a "well, idk that seems to break the usual business rules" conversation. My sincere hope is that Recordon isn't afraid to get in trouble. Actually, my advice to him would be "get in trouble all the time" or "if you're not getting in trouble, you're doing something wrong".
- bkrausz 12y ago
  > My sincere hope is that Recordon isn't afraid to get in trouble. He's extremely good at that. In fact, I can think of few better qualified to push through the BS of bureaucracy than him. That being said, FB is almost certainly easy-mode compared to the government.
  - remarkEon 12y ago
    Yeah I can't stress enough that the way to break bureaucracy really is to just ignore it and do something better. Once the bosses see that what you're doing makes more sense or works better, whatever transgressions you committed on the way to the finish line will, generally, be ignored.
    - pmorici 12y ago
      While I agree with the approach's effectiveness the risk of doing that in government is high because breaking an official policy can be construed into violating a federal law which could land you in jail. Something as simple as installing software on a government computer w/o permission. At some point you have to ask yourself why taking such a risk is rational.
- devonkim 12y ago
  This raises the issue that's plaguing government and big corporation (non-tech) organizations alike - inability to attract nor retain talent. DoD has been going through a bit of a contraction and the best developers I knew in DoD space have all turned their backs on their clearances and run very far away. At my current place, they're having an issue where we have some fairly interesting technical work but nobody with the skills to go do it because they're based in flyover country and people that can do it regularly get $160k+ base offers in the Bay Area or New York. The brain drain problem is exacerbating the problems in most of these places because the existing employees just don't feel like making a change or are benefiting from the current standard performance of abysmal and dysfunctional across most large organizations when it comes to anything innovative (as opposed to execution, which is what established businesses tend to think about mostly through extensive processes and risk avoidance).
thearn4 12y ago
I work at NASA. I do have a pretty high level of autonomy in my work (with room to experiment with new technologies and processes), but it's a very hit-or-miss thing for each of the programs and projects. I know many colleagues who aren't as lucky.
liyanchang 12y ago
Disclosure - I met David Recordon via Healthcare.gov It's a true statement that he is facing an uphill battle. However, it's heartening to hear that he's making the move because he's been doing this job already for the last couple months - just as a individual contractor on loan to the government. The fact that he's willing to keep doing the admittedly difficult but critically important work of securing White House IT speaks volumes. It's clear that people like David are needed inside the government and you've identified the key issue - how can you retain talent in an organization that moves slower and more cautiously (and yes, sometimes a bit obtusely[0])? That's in my opinion, the beauty of USDS, 18F, the other healthcare.gov tech surge spinoff companies[1] - by concentrating enough technical talent in one place, you give everyone a place to talk shop, share strategies, and yes, vent frustrations. USDS and others are not guaranteed success - by no means. However, they have a minuscule but non-zero chance and a little hope goes a long way. I look forward to cheering for each tiny little win they get, no matter how trivial (for instance WhiteHouse.gov is now https[2]). I want the government to do big things and watching it do simple things is the first step on a long long journey. [0] Though most of the time, there is some rationality to how decisions get made - just sometimes not the rationale you were hoping for. Often it's because it doesn't exactly match a checkbox on a security checklist and you have to explain to them how SSH keys are pretty much like 2048 character long passwords. [1] p.s. I hear they are all hiring. https://www.whitehouse.gov/digital/united-states-digital-service https://www.whitehouse.gov/digital/united-states-digital-ser... https://18f.gsa.gov/ https://18f.gsa.gov/ http://www.va.gov/ds/ http://www.va.gov/ds/ http://adhocteam.us/ http://adhocteam.us/ [2] Just as of a couple weeks ago, it was http only with https erroring with domain mismatch to an akamai cert. It now gets an A on ssllabs.com.
- markdeloura 12y ago
  Another great program worth looking into as a technologist is the Presidential Innovation Fellows program. Join government for 12 months and help tackle challenging problems with federal agency partners. The people in this program are really, really impressive and many of them have moved into the WH, USDS, 18F, and strong roles in the agencies afterward. https://www.whitehouse.gov/innovationfellows https://www.whitehouse.gov/innovationfellows
soci 12y ago
While in US Goverment is hiring engineering talent, in other parts of te world like where I live (Spain), this is still a dream. At least your goverment tries!
wahsd 12y ago
I understand your pedestrian frustrations, but what you don't seem to understand is that the risks to government and military, i.e., your defense, are wildly exponentially larger and far more consequential than you quite clearly seem to appreciate. Sure, there are many under and even unqualified people in positions that they are overpaid for, but that's largely more due to HR policies dictated by Congress and nepotistic corruption. Besides, those people who you think aren't quite possibly are incompetent, are largely doing a job that in all reality doesn't need to exist and is really only a position in order to fabricate a job for a vet or make various people money for various reasons. The reason you see and experienced such frustration with the immovable and static nature of government / military networks is simple a matter of real national security. Reality is that on a geo-political scale that you can't even imagine exists, there are real reasons for concern and anxiety that is only stoked by the paranoia of our guilty subconscious conscience due to our own nonsense actions and behaviors. You have freedom in the private sector, because ultimately, if a company fails, all it means is that you find another job at some other fabricated, imaginary, lofty, con job of a start up that is pumped out of "Silicon Valley" on a quarter hour basis. Failure of a nation, because some lackey wanted to experiment, means a real threat that you are incinerated, lines up looking down at a mass grave, or vaporized. Because at the core, no matter how advanced we want to perceive ourselves in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, humanity consists of various troops of primates which a rival troop will try to kill, pillage, rape and steal our women at the first chance that presents itself as perceptually cost-benefit positive.

sharkweek 12y ago

I have never worked for the federal government (or any level of government) so I could be commenting without the appropriate context here but I have worked at a massive (200K+ person) company before and it sounds just about the same as what you describe above. "We can't do anything about that" could have been on auto-reply from my boss's email.

therealwill 12y ago
Same thing happens in smaller companies too... My solution is to do it anyways. The people who say no? Fuck em, build it and if no one comes at least you KNOW that this company has too much bureaucracy to change and you should dump them. Programmers are modern day gods and we should start acting like it.
- kelukelugames 12y ago
  I will have you know that my boss thinks I am a rockstar.
- wetmore 12y ago
  We're not modern day gods.
  - freditup 12y ago
    Amen. We're actually very flawed, ordinary people who just happen to enjoy programming/computers.
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    More like kingmakers: http://thenewkingmakers.com/ http://thenewkingmakers.com/
- themightykevdog 12y ago
  Someone has been reading too much Ayn Rand.

sjg007 12y ago

Well, except that they've hired an all star A team that does the work. They just need access to the data, that can be forced by the President.

Iftheshoefits 12y ago
Actually, it probably can't, at least in most of the cases where it would matter. The President can get the ball rolling in some of those cases, but in others there may actually be an act of Congress required, or other bureaucratic hoops to jump through. The President is not the equivalent of the CEO of a private corporation. And like so many of the things around technology in government the last couple of years, this one is probably more for show than anything else.

rabbyte 12y ago

Seems like having people like Recordon join the ranks can only help that situation. Let's hope it does.

bottled_poe 12y ago

As government organisations typically do not compete with other organisations and are not driven by profits, the motivation for improvement is very unclear.

juletide 12y ago

While I understand where the skepticism comes from, I think it's overly pessimistic to think nothing's changed since your time in the government, or that Recordon won't be able to enact positive change. I've been really impressed with the quality of talent that USDS and 18F have been drawing, and with the quality of their output. While I'm sure there's still more friction than you'd see at a super-tiny private sector startup, I think everyone's aware that software/IT delievery needs to radically change, and there's a lot of smart, driven people who seem to be helping enact that change.

nobleach 12y ago
Full disclosure, I left in 2014. I watched the healthcare.gov debacle from inside the fence. I was told "no" on a daily basis because I had the audacity to hope and dream. I really do wish the absolute best for this pioneer. I hope I'm completely wrong and people LISTEN to his advisement.

remarkEon 12y ago

As someone who's about to leave government (DoD) I'm looking forward to the opportunity to experiment. That being said, your description is pretty accurate. Simple things like designing a more efficient workflow becomes something that metastasizes into a "well, idk that seems to break the usual business rules" conversation. My sincere hope is that Recordon isn't afraid to get in trouble. Actually, my advice to him would be "get in trouble all the time" or "if you're not getting in trouble, you're doing something wrong".

bkrausz 12y ago
> My sincere hope is that Recordon isn't afraid to get in trouble. He's extremely good at that. In fact, I can think of few better qualified to push through the BS of bureaucracy than him. That being said, FB is almost certainly easy-mode compared to the government.
- remarkEon 12y ago
  Yeah I can't stress enough that the way to break bureaucracy really is to just ignore it and do something better. Once the bosses see that what you're doing makes more sense or works better, whatever transgressions you committed on the way to the finish line will, generally, be ignored.
  - pmorici 12y ago
    While I agree with the approach's effectiveness the risk of doing that in government is high because breaking an official policy can be construed into violating a federal law which could land you in jail. Something as simple as installing software on a government computer w/o permission. At some point you have to ask yourself why taking such a risk is rational.
devonkim 12y ago
This raises the issue that's plaguing government and big corporation (non-tech) organizations alike - inability to attract nor retain talent. DoD has been going through a bit of a contraction and the best developers I knew in DoD space have all turned their backs on their clearances and run very far away. At my current place, they're having an issue where we have some fairly interesting technical work but nobody with the skills to go do it because they're based in flyover country and people that can do it regularly get $160k+ base offers in the Bay Area or New York. The brain drain problem is exacerbating the problems in most of these places because the existing employees just don't feel like making a change or are benefiting from the current standard performance of abysmal and dysfunctional across most large organizations when it comes to anything innovative (as opposed to execution, which is what established businesses tend to think about mostly through extensive processes and risk avoidance).

thearn4 12y ago

I work at NASA. I do have a pretty high level of autonomy in my work (with room to experiment with new technologies and processes), but it's a very hit-or-miss thing for each of the programs and projects. I know many colleagues who aren't as lucky.

liyanchang 12y ago

Disclosure - I met David Recordon via Healthcare.gov It's a true statement that he is facing an uphill battle. However, it's heartening to hear that he's making the move because he's been doing this job already for the last couple months - just as a individual contractor on loan to the government. The fact that he's willing to keep doing the admittedly difficult but critically important work of securing White House IT speaks volumes. It's clear that people like David are needed inside the government and you've identified the key issue - how can you retain talent in an organization that moves slower and more cautiously (and yes, sometimes a bit obtusely[0])? That's in my opinion, the beauty of USDS, 18F, the other healthcare.gov tech surge spinoff companies[1] - by concentrating enough technical talent in one place, you give everyone a place to talk shop, share strategies, and yes, vent frustrations. USDS and others are not guaranteed success - by no means. However, they have a minuscule but non-zero chance and a little hope goes a long way. I look forward to cheering for each tiny little win they get, no matter how trivial (for instance WhiteHouse.gov is now https[2]). I want the government to do big things and watching it do simple things is the first step on a long long journey. [0] Though most of the time, there is some rationality to how decisions get made - just sometimes not the rationale you were hoping for. Often it's because it doesn't exactly match a checkbox on a security checklist and you have to explain to them how SSH keys are pretty much like 2048 character long passwords. [1] p.s. I hear they are all hiring. https://www.whitehouse.gov/digital/united-states-digital-service https://www.whitehouse.gov/digital/united-states-digital-ser... https://18f.gsa.gov/ https://18f.gsa.gov/ http://www.va.gov/ds/ http://www.va.gov/ds/ http://adhocteam.us/ http://adhocteam.us/ [2] Just as of a couple weeks ago, it was http only with https erroring with domain mismatch to an akamai cert. It now gets an A on ssllabs.com.

markdeloura 12y ago
Another great program worth looking into as a technologist is the Presidential Innovation Fellows program. Join government for 12 months and help tackle challenging problems with federal agency partners. The people in this program are really, really impressive and many of them have moved into the WH, USDS, 18F, and strong roles in the agencies afterward. https://www.whitehouse.gov/innovationfellows https://www.whitehouse.gov/innovationfellows

soci 12y ago

While in US Goverment is hiring engineering talent, in other parts of te world like where I live (Spain), this is still a dream. At least your goverment tries!

wahsd 12y ago

I understand your pedestrian frustrations, but what you don't seem to understand is that the risks to government and military, i.e., your defense, are wildly exponentially larger and far more consequential than you quite clearly seem to appreciate. Sure, there are many under and even unqualified people in positions that they are overpaid for, but that's largely more due to HR policies dictated by Congress and nepotistic corruption. Besides, those people who you think aren't quite possibly are incompetent, are largely doing a job that in all reality doesn't need to exist and is really only a position in order to fabricate a job for a vet or make various people money for various reasons. The reason you see and experienced such frustration with the immovable and static nature of government / military networks is simple a matter of real national security. Reality is that on a geo-political scale that you can't even imagine exists, there are real reasons for concern and anxiety that is only stoked by the paranoia of our guilty subconscious conscience due to our own nonsense actions and behaviors. You have freedom in the private sector, because ultimately, if a company fails, all it means is that you find another job at some other fabricated, imaginary, lofty, con job of a start up that is pumped out of "Silicon Valley" on a quarter hour basis. Failure of a nation, because some lackey wanted to experiment, means a real threat that you are incinerated, lines up looking down at a mass grave, or vaporized. Because at the core, no matter how advanced we want to perceive ourselves in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, humanity consists of various troops of primates which a rival troop will try to kill, pillage, rape and steal our women at the first chance that presents itself as perceptually cost-benefit positive.