3 ms·

"Over the course of a year, a given pro will play thousands of poker hands, and so this shift in probabilities adds up to dramatic winnings." I don't actually

by ojbyrne 17y ago

"Over the course of a year, a given pro will play thousands of poker hands, and so this shift in probabilities adds up to dramatic winnings." I don't actually know if that's true, but my impression is the exact opposite - that pro poker players have basically parlayed a bit of initial luck into a lucrative career that really has little to do with differential skill and more to do with self-promotion. Which, to my mind, is just as useful a perspective on entrepreneurship.

karzeem 17y ago
I get what you're saying re self-promotion in the case of pros who make money from endorsements and the like. But for most (and quite possibly all) of the pros good enough to have endorsement deals, most of their income is money won at a poker table. How does self-promotion help there?
- ojbyrne 17y ago
  As I said, I don't really know enough to say, but are there stats to show that "most of their income is money won at a poker table?" And how much of that is due to being invited to tournaments?
- huangm 17y ago
  Most of the big-name 'TV-pros' have endorsements because they did well in a few large tournaments, and/or have interesting personalities. Skill plays some role, but tournaments are mostly luck.
btilly 17y ago
It depends which pros you're talking about. Certainly well-known poker players are happy to take advantage of any chance to make money with less risk. Therefore you'll rarely see them turn down opportunities to do an endorsement, be on TV, write articles, and so on. The ones who get that opportunity are not always the best. It is also clear that the chance to do this is a significant motivation to participate in tournaments. However most pros make significant money day in and day out playing cash games. In fact most live on that. And I guarantee that you aren't going to make money on cash games with just a little bit of initial luck. I also guarantee that if you lack skill and play those cash games, you'll get wiped out. And the pros who make a living online? I guarantee they have skill! The level of competition in high stake online games is much, much higher than in casinos.
huangm 17y ago
There's a difference between a 'TV-pro', the type of 'pro' that appears on the WSOP, and a real pro poker player, someone that makes their living off profits at the table. These aren't mutually exclusive (Phil Ivey, for example), but it seems that your impression of pro poker players is of the 'TV-pro' variety. Players who rely on winnings for their livelihood do meet the author's description. In particular, for online poker players, the # of hands per year can total in the millions, and you can get pretty specific about the types of strategies/decisions that will alter your bottom line. I played poker online pretty seriously (and profitably) for about 2 years, logging over a million hands, and I definitely did no self-promotion. Check http://www.pokertableratings.com/ http://www.pokertableratings.com/, a site that logs all hands played at the major poker websites. A major statistic is BB/100 (big blinds won per 100 hands), which is an oft used metric for profitability. The online poker community has a very good idea of the expected BB/100 at various skill levels/stakes, and the associated variance - it's very much a 'science'. The impression of self-promotion that you have is an unfortunate result of commercialized poker TV.

by ojbyrne 17y ago

karzeem 17y ago

I get what you're saying re self-promotion in the case of pros who make money from endorsements and the like. But for most (and quite possibly all) of the pros good enough to have endorsement deals, most of their income is money won at a poker table. How does self-promotion help there?

ojbyrne 17y ago
As I said, I don't really know enough to say, but are there stats to show that "most of their income is money won at a poker table?" And how much of that is due to being invited to tournaments?
huangm 17y ago
Most of the big-name 'TV-pros' have endorsements because they did well in a few large tournaments, and/or have interesting personalities. Skill plays some role, but tournaments are mostly luck.

btilly 17y ago

It depends which pros you're talking about. Certainly well-known poker players are happy to take advantage of any chance to make money with less risk. Therefore you'll rarely see them turn down opportunities to do an endorsement, be on TV, write articles, and so on. The ones who get that opportunity are not always the best. It is also clear that the chance to do this is a significant motivation to participate in tournaments. However most pros make significant money day in and day out playing cash games. In fact most live on that. And I guarantee that you aren't going to make money on cash games with just a little bit of initial luck. I also guarantee that if you lack skill and play those cash games, you'll get wiped out. And the pros who make a living online? I guarantee they have skill! The level of competition in high stake online games is much, much higher than in casinos.

huangm 17y ago

There's a difference between a 'TV-pro', the type of 'pro' that appears on the WSOP, and a real pro poker player, someone that makes their living off profits at the table. These aren't mutually exclusive (Phil Ivey, for example), but it seems that your impression of pro poker players is of the 'TV-pro' variety. Players who rely on winnings for their livelihood do meet the author's description. In particular, for online poker players, the # of hands per year can total in the millions, and you can get pretty specific about the types of strategies/decisions that will alter your bottom line. I played poker online pretty seriously (and profitably) for about 2 years, logging over a million hands, and I definitely did no self-promotion. Check http://www.pokertableratings.com/ http://www.pokertableratings.com/, a site that logs all hands played at the major poker websites. A major statistic is BB/100 (big blinds won per 100 hands), which is an oft used metric for profitability. The online poker community has a very good idea of the expected BB/100 at various skill levels/stakes, and the associated variance - it's very much a 'science'. The impression of self-promotion that you have is an unfortunate result of commercialized poker TV.