7 ms·

“Reasons you shouldn't join us: if you're looking for work-life balance.”

59 points by macphisto178 12y ago

abuehrle 12y ago
So don't work for this company? Sometimes people live and breathe the work they do, and are looking for others who will as well. It's up to you to decide whether you want to participate in what they're doing.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  See, the trouble is there are people in this industry who would work at this place, and that contributes to lower wages and poorer working conditions. Sure, I won't work there but the fact that others will has an impact on me at least indirectly. I think that's sufficient reason to call out this kind of job/company for the bullshit it is.
  - mkoryak 12y ago
    Isn't that kind of like saying that those guys who always stay past 6pm or come in before 8am are assholes?
    - padobson 12y ago
      Not if those guys are laying fat stacks of sweet cheddar.
    - iamcurious 12y ago
      Of course not. But if they aren't demanding something for their efforts, they are misguided.
    - jschwartzi 12y ago
      What if you stay past 6 because you don't roll out of bed before 8?
    - lmm 12y ago
      Damn right they are, if they're doing it without pay. Any union would put a stop to that. A shame America's "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" are unwilling to act in their own interest.
    - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
      "Asshole" isn't the right word, assuming you mean they are working overtime regularly without pay. I'd probably use other words like "gullible" and "useful idiot[1]." And, yes, I would put them in the same tent as the other useful idiots who'd happily (as opppsed to out of desperation) take a job advertised as per the link in the article. [1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
- bsg75 12y ago
  A translation of their post is "Don't work for us if you want either adequate compensation for your time and effort, or reasonable work hours." People who fully invest themselves in their work should be compensated accordingly, and this company is at their own admission not doing so. They are not looking for dedication, they are looking for cannon fodder.
- collyw 12y ago
  This sort of behavior drives down every developer's wages.
- Dewie 12y ago
  I seriously want to meet the kind of person who looks at a job advert, maybe does an interview, and then decides "Yep, this is the kind of job that I would like to live and breath". I can understand if someone does a job for a good while and gets invested and passionate about it. But who are these people who just look at job adverts and say "Yep, I could definitely centre my whole life around this."?
some_furry 12y ago
Another reason: "You're primarily interested with salary." Sounds like this company prides itself on overworking their employees and paying them less than what they're worth. (Which is what a lot of companies do, but they aren't proud of it.)
- zamalek 12y ago
  "Something you can be proud of when you're old and reflecting on your life." Yes, I would love to look back at my life and reminisce about all the hours spent at a desk and how my pension is now unable to put food on the table.
- Dewie 12y ago
  I thought a salary was... you know... the primary thing that separates "a job" from "doing whatever the hell you want". But I guess I'm just not passionate enough to be a slave to other people's enterprises.
  - some_furry 12y ago
    > But I guess I'm just not passionate enough to be a slave to other people's enterprises. I spend a lot of time working on open source. (I never do so at my dayjob.) The second an open source project demands my time, I shut my computer down and go for a walk. Out of spite, to be truthful. Whatever is wrong, it can wait. I've rarely ever accepted a request from an employer to stay late to work on something. And when I did, I regretted it later. I'm passionate by most peoples' standards, and even I wouldn't subject myself to that treatment. I can't even call people willing to do this masochistic.
- sp332 12y ago
  Especially when they say they expect you to do the best work of your life.
- notahacker 12y ago
  At least they offer a salary. I'm appalled by the number of startups that think "lunch and expenses" is acceptable compensation for up to 3 months of full time work with a possibility of a salaried position at the end (Bonus points for boasting about funding and how nice the offices are in the ad and expecting the unpaid lackey to meet certain minimum academic standards and have prior commercial experience)
uptown 12y ago
Blockai: https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32805-back-end-engineer https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32805-back-end-engineer PRODUCT Blockai is the first universal blockchain browser. A single platform for using the best blockchain apps, with a bitcoin wallet and social identity to make it simple to use. We’re making it fun to explore and publish on the blockchain, visualized as a filterable stream. The same way that Netscape took people into the world of the web, and built open-source technologies to support its growth, we are doing the same for the blockchain. Unlike Netscape, we have a clear path to revenue with a bitcoin wallet built right in. We anticipate 1,000s of amazing applications will be built on the blockchain that will change the status quo of everything on the web. We want Blockai to become the main way people experience those applications.
- adamnemecek 12y ago
  > We’re making it fun to explore and publish on the blockchain, visualized as a filterable stream. Few things are as fun as exploring the blockchain.
- littletimmy 12y ago
  Wait $100k salary with 6% equity at max sounds not bad at all if you believe in their idea. Although I highly doubt they're a once in a decade opportunity that will be changing the world in a better way.
  - nhstanley 12y ago
    $100k in SF is laughable (for that kind of commitment). If you're not offering $200k minimum, it's not even worth 60 seconds of consideration. Unless you really really believe in that 6%. But man you really shouldn't. Edit: To back this up a little more: To buy a median house in SF you need to make ~$142k. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/08/map-the-salary-you-need-to-buy-a-home-in-27-u-s-cities http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/08/m... The 95th percentile in income is WAY higher in SF than anywhere else, and so is the cost of living. https://twitter.com/conradhackett/status/578004292151341056 https://twitter.com/conradhackett/status/578004292151341056 My opinion is that if you're not clearly putting me in a comfortable position financially, why would I ever make such a sacrifice?
serve_yay 12y ago
At least they're coming out and saying it.
chojeen 12y ago
Why would anyone ever take a job like this when there are tons of interesting jobs that actually do have work-life balance and pay a hell of a lot better? Hell, you could still work long 6-day weeks if you wanted to, but at least that way you would have the option of taking a break.
- sp332 12y ago
  Like what?
  - deong 12y ago
    If you're qualified for this one, then the answer to your question is "almost anything else".
  - freehunter 12y ago
    My job. Sitting at home in my pajamas, in a place a hell of lot cheaper than SF, making about the same amount these guys are offering (according to a link someone posted further up). I think I'll go for a walk at lunch, and keep working from the nature preserve down the road because it's a nice day. And when my wife gets home, 90% of the time the laptop closes and I'm off the clock. If you can't imagine a job paying $100k+ that lets you also have a life, you're not looking hard enough. Or maybe I'm just lucky to not be a programmer.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - sp332 12y ago
      It is tough. What do you do that's so valuable?
      - s54b32dd 12y ago
        I'm (obviously) not the person you're replying to, but information security, financial analyst, systems analyst (ok, some basic programming skill required), systems architect, IT audit all come to mind. That's just within the scope of the jobs I've been asked to interview for within the last 3-4 months. I'm a CISSP with a couple years of infosec consulting & audit experience; I can read/write SQL, and that's about it, in terms of programming. That said, I understand large-scale organizational infrastructure and am current on the organizational concepts associated with building & mainaining a large-scale IT environment, so that's what I bring to the table as an employee. I work 40-45 hours in an average week, and the glassdoor box charts for positions with my skill set are typically between $80k and $130k, depending on experience and the company you choose to work for in my region.
littletimmy 12y ago
I'm curious to know what is this company that is a "once in a decade" opportunity "to change the world for the better". Is there a limit to this ridiculousness? What's next? "Join our company because it is literally the only path to salvation. Seriously, your life is worthless if you pass this up." Boom... now your company is a cult.
- code_chimp 12y ago
  https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32804-front-end-engineer https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32804-front-end-engineer
mc32 12y ago
Gotta give them credit for being "honest". Of course it plays off on people wanting to appear as eager and not workshy, but this is pretty sadist and I imagine the company is being a bit masochistic in this job market. Who in their right minds would work for people who openly espouse overwork and aggressive work environment? I'd like a follow up on their ability to retain workers, provided they don't get "reeducated" in the process. I can't see how this could appeal to anyone beside new male graduates in a bit of a bind and have some latent sadist tendencies. Or people looking for sponsorship and might put up with this ridiculousness.
- Dewie 12y ago
  And at least they're not being indirect about it. E.g., "passionate", "not the type to insist on leaving at exactly 5 pm."...
- zamalek 12y ago
  > Who in their right minds would work for people who openly espouse overwork and aggressive work environment? The screencap doesn't have an experience requirement so I am guessing fresh graduates and/or those who never got a BSC and are desperate. We're all laughing at the posting because we probably have had the misfortune to work at a place like that, or know someone who has. There are people who will fall into this type of trap and sadly it's the people who can't afford to.
- weego 12y ago
  I don't see why shitty people should get credit for being overtly shitty.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
dropit_sphere 12y ago
One reason for working for them sounds less abusive, but more...stupid. "You're one of the best front-end engineers you've ever known." No, dickwad, that's a reason you should hire me. What it really means, of course, is: "We use the rash pride of inexperienced developers to set expectations sky-high, then justify the low salary when they turn out not to be the lovechild of Brendan Eich and Mike Bostock."
imroot 12y ago
I had a company effectively tell me the same thing -- that taking their job would be disastrous for my hobbies/family ("We work from 10AM until 11PM most days, and later on Friday and Saturday") and then gave me a salary formula that would bring me down to making less than half of what I was currently making. I politely declined -- and am still getting emails from them once a week saying that they'd love to have me on their team and if I reconsider, please let them know.
- jazzyk 12y ago
  Then they will complain about "lack of skilled people to fill jobs"...
- wkdown 12y ago
  Reply to the emails that, maybe once they start respecting employees and hiring developers that respect themselves.
kevinmchugh 12y ago
I once had a job, where the CEO, during his monthly all-hands call, banned the phrase 'work-life balance'. He talked about it as an invention of the industrial revolution that applied only to sweatshop work. He was from a farm, see, and on farms, you work until the work is done. The company, he told us, never promised its employees work-life balance, and we should all stop talking about it. We should work until the work is done, like farmers do. The chatroom I was in at the time exploded with everyone posting the job descriptions we currently had open, all of which boasted about the healthy work-life balance our company offered. Those job descriptions changed within a week, and I left within 2 months.
- andreash 12y ago
  Is the company successful? Do you see any other positive sides the CEOs working attitude?
ryandvm 12y ago
Run as fast as you can in the other direction of this job listing. It's bad enough trying to manage a work-life balance at a company that claims to support it. I can't imagine how hellish it would be to work at a company that consciously scoffs at it.
kleer001 12y ago
Is this like a date who says "You shouldn't be in a relationship with me because I'm a hot mess." ?
matt_morgan 12y ago
We're all talking about what we would do when seeing this job post, but the issue isn't how many thousands of us wouldn't apply, but how many dozens would. And it's easy enough to test response rates to these things. I.e., as much as it turns off many of us it might turn on a few people, and they may even have some evidence that this approach works. No clue whether they did or didn't, but they can always post it again if they don't get applicants they like. There's no point in debating what we like when they can get the right answer with confidence via testing.
ashwinaj 12y ago
Maybe I'm in the minority with my opinion. This is pretty common in most startups in Silicon Valley (it is true in the one I'm working for currently). You usually have an option of getting a less pay, more equity or higher pay, less equity. It is assumed that you won't have much of a work-life balance, but some would like to spell it out clearly. Nobody forced me into this, I chose it because I wanted to work with brilliant people (I'm not saying there aren't any in established companies) and roll the dice and see where it goes. I really don't see how this is so controversial when there is a chance, however small, that there could be a big windfall if things fall into place. For someone who values work-life balance, they should look to join an established company.
wingchen 12y ago
Don't even think they will respect you in any other way other than work-life balance. That's something I learned through hard lessons. Life is too short to work for crazy bosses. Most of them think they are Steve Jobs, but in reality, they are just another slave driver.

59 points by macphisto178 12y ago

So don't work for this company? Sometimes people live and breathe the work they do, and are looking for others who will as well. It's up to you to decide whether you want to participate in what they're doing.

Iftheshoefits 12y ago
See, the trouble is there are people in this industry who would work at this place, and that contributes to lower wages and poorer working conditions. Sure, I won't work there but the fact that others will has an impact on me at least indirectly. I think that's sufficient reason to call out this kind of job/company for the bullshit it is.
- mkoryak 12y ago
  Isn't that kind of like saying that those guys who always stay past 6pm or come in before 8am are assholes?
  - padobson 12y ago
    Not if those guys are laying fat stacks of sweet cheddar.
  - iamcurious 12y ago
    Of course not. But if they aren't demanding something for their efforts, they are misguided.
  - jschwartzi 12y ago
    What if you stay past 6 because you don't roll out of bed before 8?
  - lmm 12y ago
    Damn right they are, if they're doing it without pay. Any union would put a stop to that. A shame America's "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" are unwilling to act in their own interest.
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    "Asshole" isn't the right word, assuming you mean they are working overtime regularly without pay. I'd probably use other words like "gullible" and "useful idiot[1]." And, yes, I would put them in the same tent as the other useful idiots who'd happily (as opppsed to out of desperation) take a job advertised as per the link in the article. [1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
bsg75 12y ago
A translation of their post is "Don't work for us if you want either adequate compensation for your time and effort, or reasonable work hours." People who fully invest themselves in their work should be compensated accordingly, and this company is at their own admission not doing so. They are not looking for dedication, they are looking for cannon fodder.
collyw 12y ago
This sort of behavior drives down every developer's wages.
Dewie 12y ago
I seriously want to meet the kind of person who looks at a job advert, maybe does an interview, and then decides "Yep, this is the kind of job that I would like to live and breath". I can understand if someone does a job for a good while and gets invested and passionate about it. But who are these people who just look at job adverts and say "Yep, I could definitely centre my whole life around this."?

some_furry 12y ago

Another reason: "You're primarily interested with salary." Sounds like this company prides itself on overworking their employees and paying them less than what they're worth. (Which is what a lot of companies do, but they aren't proud of it.)

zamalek 12y ago
"Something you can be proud of when you're old and reflecting on your life." Yes, I would love to look back at my life and reminisce about all the hours spent at a desk and how my pension is now unable to put food on the table.
Dewie 12y ago
I thought a salary was... you know... the primary thing that separates "a job" from "doing whatever the hell you want". But I guess I'm just not passionate enough to be a slave to other people's enterprises.
- some_furry 12y ago
  > But I guess I'm just not passionate enough to be a slave to other people's enterprises. I spend a lot of time working on open source. (I never do so at my dayjob.) The second an open source project demands my time, I shut my computer down and go for a walk. Out of spite, to be truthful. Whatever is wrong, it can wait. I've rarely ever accepted a request from an employer to stay late to work on something. And when I did, I regretted it later. I'm passionate by most peoples' standards, and even I wouldn't subject myself to that treatment. I can't even call people willing to do this masochistic.
sp332 12y ago
Especially when they say they expect you to do the best work of your life.
notahacker 12y ago
At least they offer a salary. I'm appalled by the number of startups that think "lunch and expenses" is acceptable compensation for up to 3 months of full time work with a possibility of a salaried position at the end (Bonus points for boasting about funding and how nice the offices are in the ad and expecting the unpaid lackey to meet certain minimum academic standards and have prior commercial experience)

uptown 12y ago

Blockai: https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32805-back-end-engineer https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32805-back-end-engineer PRODUCT Blockai is the first universal blockchain browser. A single platform for using the best blockchain apps, with a bitcoin wallet and social identity to make it simple to use. We’re making it fun to explore and publish on the blockchain, visualized as a filterable stream. The same way that Netscape took people into the world of the web, and built open-source technologies to support its growth, we are doing the same for the blockchain. Unlike Netscape, we have a clear path to revenue with a bitcoin wallet built right in. We anticipate 1,000s of amazing applications will be built on the blockchain that will change the status quo of everything on the web. We want Blockai to become the main way people experience those applications.

adamnemecek 12y ago
> We’re making it fun to explore and publish on the blockchain, visualized as a filterable stream. Few things are as fun as exploring the blockchain.
littletimmy 12y ago
Wait $100k salary with 6% equity at max sounds not bad at all if you believe in their idea. Although I highly doubt they're a once in a decade opportunity that will be changing the world in a better way.
- nhstanley 12y ago
  $100k in SF is laughable (for that kind of commitment). If you're not offering $200k minimum, it's not even worth 60 seconds of consideration. Unless you really really believe in that 6%. But man you really shouldn't. Edit: To back this up a little more: To buy a median house in SF you need to make ~$142k. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/08/map-the-salary-you-need-to-buy-a-home-in-27-u-s-cities http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/08/m... The 95th percentile in income is WAY higher in SF than anywhere else, and so is the cost of living. https://twitter.com/conradhackett/status/578004292151341056 https://twitter.com/conradhackett/status/578004292151341056 My opinion is that if you're not clearly putting me in a comfortable position financially, why would I ever make such a sacrifice?

serve_yay 12y ago

At least they're coming out and saying it.

chojeen 12y ago

Why would anyone ever take a job like this when there are tons of interesting jobs that actually do have work-life balance and pay a hell of a lot better? Hell, you could still work long 6-day weeks if you wanted to, but at least that way you would have the option of taking a break.

sp332 12y ago
Like what?
- deong 12y ago
  If you're qualified for this one, then the answer to your question is "almost anything else".
- freehunter 12y ago
  My job. Sitting at home in my pajamas, in a place a hell of lot cheaper than SF, making about the same amount these guys are offering (according to a link someone posted further up). I think I'll go for a walk at lunch, and keep working from the nature preserve down the road because it's a nice day. And when my wife gets home, 90% of the time the laptop closes and I'm off the clock. If you can't imagine a job paying $100k+ that lets you also have a life, you're not looking hard enough. Or maybe I'm just lucky to not be a programmer.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - sp332 12y ago
    It is tough. What do you do that's so valuable?
    - s54b32dd 12y ago
      I'm (obviously) not the person you're replying to, but information security, financial analyst, systems analyst (ok, some basic programming skill required), systems architect, IT audit all come to mind. That's just within the scope of the jobs I've been asked to interview for within the last 3-4 months. I'm a CISSP with a couple years of infosec consulting & audit experience; I can read/write SQL, and that's about it, in terms of programming. That said, I understand large-scale organizational infrastructure and am current on the organizational concepts associated with building & mainaining a large-scale IT environment, so that's what I bring to the table as an employee. I work 40-45 hours in an average week, and the glassdoor box charts for positions with my skill set are typically between $80k and $130k, depending on experience and the company you choose to work for in my region.

littletimmy 12y ago

I'm curious to know what is this company that is a "once in a decade" opportunity "to change the world for the better". Is there a limit to this ridiculousness? What's next? "Join our company because it is literally the only path to salvation. Seriously, your life is worthless if you pass this up." Boom... now your company is a cult.

code_chimp 12y ago
https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32804-front-end-engineer https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32804-front-end-engineer

mc32 12y ago

Gotta give them credit for being "honest". Of course it plays off on people wanting to appear as eager and not workshy, but this is pretty sadist and I imagine the company is being a bit masochistic in this job market. Who in their right minds would work for people who openly espouse overwork and aggressive work environment? I'd like a follow up on their ability to retain workers, provided they don't get "reeducated" in the process. I can't see how this could appeal to anyone beside new male graduates in a bit of a bind and have some latent sadist tendencies. Or people looking for sponsorship and might put up with this ridiculousness.

Dewie 12y ago
And at least they're not being indirect about it. E.g., "passionate", "not the type to insist on leaving at exactly 5 pm."...
zamalek 12y ago
> Who in their right minds would work for people who openly espouse overwork and aggressive work environment? The screencap doesn't have an experience requirement so I am guessing fresh graduates and/or those who never got a BSC and are desperate. We're all laughing at the posting because we probably have had the misfortune to work at a place like that, or know someone who has. There are people who will fall into this type of trap and sadly it's the people who can't afford to.
weego 12y ago
I don't see why shitty people should get credit for being overtly shitty.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

dropit_sphere 12y ago

One reason for working for them sounds less abusive, but more...stupid. "You're one of the best front-end engineers you've ever known." No, dickwad, that's a reason you should hire me. What it really means, of course, is: "We use the rash pride of inexperienced developers to set expectations sky-high, then justify the low salary when they turn out not to be the lovechild of Brendan Eich and Mike Bostock."

imroot 12y ago

I had a company effectively tell me the same thing -- that taking their job would be disastrous for my hobbies/family ("We work from 10AM until 11PM most days, and later on Friday and Saturday") and then gave me a salary formula that would bring me down to making less than half of what I was currently making. I politely declined -- and am still getting emails from them once a week saying that they'd love to have me on their team and if I reconsider, please let them know.

jazzyk 12y ago
Then they will complain about "lack of skilled people to fill jobs"...
wkdown 12y ago
Reply to the emails that, maybe once they start respecting employees and hiring developers that respect themselves.

kevinmchugh 12y ago

I once had a job, where the CEO, during his monthly all-hands call, banned the phrase 'work-life balance'. He talked about it as an invention of the industrial revolution that applied only to sweatshop work. He was from a farm, see, and on farms, you work until the work is done. The company, he told us, never promised its employees work-life balance, and we should all stop talking about it. We should work until the work is done, like farmers do. The chatroom I was in at the time exploded with everyone posting the job descriptions we currently had open, all of which boasted about the healthy work-life balance our company offered. Those job descriptions changed within a week, and I left within 2 months.

andreash 12y ago
Is the company successful? Do you see any other positive sides the CEOs working attitude?

ryandvm 12y ago

Run as fast as you can in the other direction of this job listing. It's bad enough trying to manage a work-life balance at a company that claims to support it. I can't imagine how hellish it would be to work at a company that consciously scoffs at it.

kleer001 12y ago

Is this like a date who says "You shouldn't be in a relationship with me because I'm a hot mess." ?

matt_morgan 12y ago

We're all talking about what we would do when seeing this job post, but the issue isn't how many thousands of us wouldn't apply, but how many dozens would. And it's easy enough to test response rates to these things. I.e., as much as it turns off many of us it might turn on a few people, and they may even have some evidence that this approach works. No clue whether they did or didn't, but they can always post it again if they don't get applicants they like. There's no point in debating what we like when they can get the right answer with confidence via testing.

ashwinaj 12y ago

Maybe I'm in the minority with my opinion. This is pretty common in most startups in Silicon Valley (it is true in the one I'm working for currently). You usually have an option of getting a less pay, more equity or higher pay, less equity. It is assumed that you won't have much of a work-life balance, but some would like to spell it out clearly. Nobody forced me into this, I chose it because I wanted to work with brilliant people (I'm not saying there aren't any in established companies) and roll the dice and see where it goes. I really don't see how this is so controversial when there is a chance, however small, that there could be a big windfall if things fall into place. For someone who values work-life balance, they should look to join an established company.

wingchen 12y ago

Don't even think they will respect you in any other way other than work-life balance. That's something I learned through hard lessons. Life is too short to work for crazy bosses. Most of them think they are Steve Jobs, but in reality, they are just another slave driver.