8 ms·

I was sort of hoping that the forcing down of Evo Morales' plane would be a turning point in terms of trust and good relations with the US. That was such an out

by TillE 12y ago

I was sort of hoping that the forcing down of Evo Morales' plane would be a turning point in terms of trust and good relations with the US. That was such an outrageous step based on the merest suspicion, it's almost hard to believe it actually happened. Trade is important. Some level of cooperation is good. But these are independent, powerful countries (especially Germany), and they ought to act like it.

deleted 12y ago
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- deleted 12y ago
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  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    That's a lovely example of torpedoing your own argument with truly shitty citations.
  - brazzy 12y ago
    Did you actually watch the entire 55 seconds of the video and understand what Schäuble meant? Namely that the traditional meaning of sovereignty, "we can do whatever the heck we want without asking for anyone's approval" is something not worth having that Europe as a whole has abandoned, because it led to two world wars. As for the notion that German intelligence services are "run by the CIA" - nosense, it's of course directly run by the Illuminati, just like the CIA!
- brazzy 12y ago
  > but they probably don't really have an army, and I'm sure US has still quite a few military bases there. After all, they've only been a country for 25 years. "Probably"? "I'm sure"? How about not making bald-faced assertions based on wild-ass guesses that are spectacularly wrong? Germany has been a country since 1949, It has had an army since 1955, which is currently considered the 7th or 8th most powerful in the world. And the USA has military bases all over the world; by that standard, the UK is not independant either.
  - pjc50 12y ago
    The USA has military bases all over the world, correct. But how many countries have military bases in the US? That's the real indicator of power. The UK's independence from the US has been weak since Suez. It's not entirely clear whether we can independently launch our nukes, for example. And the bases have been locally controversial (e.g. Greenham Common). The last independent military action the UK took without US approval was the Falklands War. I'm not sure we'd be capable of winning it again, although there was a lot of good and bad luck involved the first time.
    - gsnedders 12y ago
      I'd be very doubtful if the Falklands were overrun tomorrow (though that's probably less likely with the base there[1]). Lack of aircraft carriers surely must eliminate any realistic chance of air superiority, and there are no bombers remaining (the closest thing being the Tornado GR4, whose range is pitiful in comparison to the Vulcan's, and that was a logistical challenge itself[2]). [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Falkland_Islands http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Falkland_Island... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck
- hluska 12y ago
  Is this meant to be a joke, or do you really know this little about Germany??
pluma 12y ago
Personally, that was the exact moment when I first felt ashamed of the EU and Germany in particular. To put it bluntly, that incident and the absolute lack of outrage from the governments involved (especially in face of Snowden's disclosures preceding it) clarified "we're the US's bitch and we know our place".
- refurb 12y ago
  Or, you know, it could be that the EU thought "Jesus, if someone pulls a Snowden on us, we'd like the US to help us grab them, so lets help the US grab Snowden". I'm pretty sure the EU intelligence community is crapping themselves at the thought of a huge leak happening to them.
  - yuashizuki 12y ago
    EU doesn't syp on their own citizens so NO.
    - ojbyrne 12y ago
      That seems unlikely.
    - Amezarak 12y ago
      Ironically, the Snowden leaks revealed that EU countries do spy on their citizens, just like the NSA. And yes, that includes Germany and its BND. It's always struck me as bizarre that, at least in discussion forums like HN, the US is regarded as an unusually bad actor when it's simply the leader of the gang.
      - DyslexicAtheist 12y ago
        the US has become like a modern stasi. the scariest part is the number of people who remain blind about this fact
      - balabaster 12y ago
        There is still much good about the U.S. The only thing that people regularly seem to complain about is that they want to act however they choose, ignore how that affects the rest of the world and then when someone stands up and says, no that's bullshit, they act like a spoiled brat about it. [Clarification: I'm not speaking about the U.S. as a whole, just the government agencies that regularly reach beyond their legal authority to achieve illegal objectives]
madaxe_again 12y ago
I think the take-away from all of this is that the civilised world needs to take a stand against the US, and collectively go "you know what, shove your intelligence, and your 'friendship'". Friendship from the the US is like that friend who comes by, puts his muddy boots on your desk, tells you to fix his computer, stubs a cigarette out on the carpet, and on his way out punches a neighbour for looking at him funny. Once in a while he'll turn up with some guy he beat up, and tell you that this is evidence of his benevolent protection... and you'd better keep on my good side, bro. You wouldn't like me when I'm mad. This act alone, if done publicly and loudly, would quite likely decrease any variety of terroristic threat to cooperating nations, merely through the act of disassociation with the USA, thus making their threats utterly toothless. As it is, however, through TTIP and TPP the world is further embroiling themselves in the affairs of this embattled state, and matters can only worsen.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  Europe could elect politicians that cut ties with the US but they don't. As long as they don't the status quo will remain. Maybe they are too scared, who knows, they certainly complain a lot but that doesn't change anything.
  - mike_hearn 12y ago
    Do any such politicians exist? Democracy is a very, very low resolution way of making decisions. Politicians virtually never run on a platform of foreign policy. It's always domestic issues. Once they get elected on domestic issues they then implement whatever foreign policy they personally feel like.
- sremani 12y ago
  Europe is heavily subsidized by American security blanket. You guys get more out of the friendship than you realize and those two bit caricature type squabbles, I will excuse it as European snobbery.
  - eternalban 12y ago
deleted 12y ago
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- pjc50 12y ago
  You do realise that saying that, even as a joke, puts you on the US secret service watchlist?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
ChikkaChiChi 12y ago
What's interesting how interchangeable American overstepping in privacy (and trying to catch Snowden) and the Ukrainian situation with Russia. The odd part is that the media seems to think it's all Putin, but the US is almost always referred to as the entity (as opposed to simply Obama). Everyone seems to keep expecting the world to react, specifically the EU, but nothing seems to ever happen.
- mercer 12y ago
  It's easier to vilify a person than it is to vilify a nation. And I suppose Putin being, well, Putin, makes it even more convenient.
krylon 12y ago
As a German, I have suspected for a while that something like this had happened behind the scenes. I am surprised, though, that Sigmar Gabriel would admit it this openly on the record. One the one hand, I am quite disappointed at the German government's lack of courage to stand up to the US. On the other hand, if I was Snowden, I would not go to Germany even if the government was on their knees begging me to come here, given the number of US soldiers and intelligence operatives stationed in Germany. So the whole question if Germany should offer asylum to Snowden seems kind of hypothetical to me.

by TillE 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  That's a lovely example of torpedoing your own argument with truly shitty citations.
- brazzy 12y ago
  Did you actually watch the entire 55 seconds of the video and understand what Schäuble meant? Namely that the traditional meaning of sovereignty, "we can do whatever the heck we want without asking for anyone's approval" is something not worth having that Europe as a whole has abandoned, because it led to two world wars. As for the notion that German intelligence services are "run by the CIA" - nosense, it's of course directly run by the Illuminati, just like the CIA!
brazzy 12y ago
> but they probably don't really have an army, and I'm sure US has still quite a few military bases there. After all, they've only been a country for 25 years. "Probably"? "I'm sure"? How about not making bald-faced assertions based on wild-ass guesses that are spectacularly wrong? Germany has been a country since 1949, It has had an army since 1955, which is currently considered the 7th or 8th most powerful in the world. And the USA has military bases all over the world; by that standard, the UK is not independant either.
- pjc50 12y ago
  The USA has military bases all over the world, correct. But how many countries have military bases in the US? That's the real indicator of power. The UK's independence from the US has been weak since Suez. It's not entirely clear whether we can independently launch our nukes, for example. And the bases have been locally controversial (e.g. Greenham Common). The last independent military action the UK took without US approval was the Falklands War. I'm not sure we'd be capable of winning it again, although there was a lot of good and bad luck involved the first time.
  - gsnedders 12y ago
    I'd be very doubtful if the Falklands were overrun tomorrow (though that's probably less likely with the base there[1]). Lack of aircraft carriers surely must eliminate any realistic chance of air superiority, and there are no bombers remaining (the closest thing being the Tornado GR4, whose range is pitiful in comparison to the Vulcan's, and that was a logistical challenge itself[2]). [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Falkland_Islands http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Falkland_Island... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck
hluska 12y ago
Is this meant to be a joke, or do you really know this little about Germany??

pluma 12y ago

Personally, that was the exact moment when I first felt ashamed of the EU and Germany in particular. To put it bluntly, that incident and the absolute lack of outrage from the governments involved (especially in face of Snowden's disclosures preceding it) clarified "we're the US's bitch and we know our place".

refurb 12y ago
Or, you know, it could be that the EU thought "Jesus, if someone pulls a Snowden on us, we'd like the US to help us grab them, so lets help the US grab Snowden". I'm pretty sure the EU intelligence community is crapping themselves at the thought of a huge leak happening to them.
- yuashizuki 12y ago
  EU doesn't syp on their own citizens so NO.
  - ojbyrne 12y ago
    That seems unlikely.
  - Amezarak 12y ago
    Ironically, the Snowden leaks revealed that EU countries do spy on their citizens, just like the NSA. And yes, that includes Germany and its BND. It's always struck me as bizarre that, at least in discussion forums like HN, the US is regarded as an unusually bad actor when it's simply the leader of the gang.
    - DyslexicAtheist 12y ago
      the US has become like a modern stasi. the scariest part is the number of people who remain blind about this fact
    - balabaster 12y ago
      There is still much good about the U.S. The only thing that people regularly seem to complain about is that they want to act however they choose, ignore how that affects the rest of the world and then when someone stands up and says, no that's bullshit, they act like a spoiled brat about it. [Clarification: I'm not speaking about the U.S. as a whole, just the government agencies that regularly reach beyond their legal authority to achieve illegal objectives]

madaxe_again 12y ago

I think the take-away from all of this is that the civilised world needs to take a stand against the US, and collectively go "you know what, shove your intelligence, and your 'friendship'". Friendship from the the US is like that friend who comes by, puts his muddy boots on your desk, tells you to fix his computer, stubs a cigarette out on the carpet, and on his way out punches a neighbour for looking at him funny. Once in a while he'll turn up with some guy he beat up, and tell you that this is evidence of his benevolent protection... and you'd better keep on my good side, bro. You wouldn't like me when I'm mad. This act alone, if done publicly and loudly, would quite likely decrease any variety of terroristic threat to cooperating nations, merely through the act of disassociation with the USA, thus making their threats utterly toothless. As it is, however, through TTIP and TPP the world is further embroiling themselves in the affairs of this embattled state, and matters can only worsen.

happyscrappy 12y ago
Europe could elect politicians that cut ties with the US but they don't. As long as they don't the status quo will remain. Maybe they are too scared, who knows, they certainly complain a lot but that doesn't change anything.
- mike_hearn 12y ago
  Do any such politicians exist? Democracy is a very, very low resolution way of making decisions. Politicians virtually never run on a platform of foreign policy. It's always domestic issues. Once they get elected on domestic issues they then implement whatever foreign policy they personally feel like.
sremani 12y ago
Europe is heavily subsidized by American security blanket. You guys get more out of the friendship than you realize and those two bit caricature type squabbles, I will excuse it as European snobbery.
- eternalban 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

pjc50 12y ago
You do realise that saying that, even as a joke, puts you on the US secret service watchlist?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

ChikkaChiChi 12y ago

What's interesting how interchangeable American overstepping in privacy (and trying to catch Snowden) and the Ukrainian situation with Russia. The odd part is that the media seems to think it's all Putin, but the US is almost always referred to as the entity (as opposed to simply Obama). Everyone seems to keep expecting the world to react, specifically the EU, but nothing seems to ever happen.

mercer 12y ago
It's easier to vilify a person than it is to vilify a nation. And I suppose Putin being, well, Putin, makes it even more convenient.

krylon 12y ago

As a German, I have suspected for a while that something like this had happened behind the scenes. I am surprised, though, that Sigmar Gabriel would admit it this openly on the record. One the one hand, I am quite disappointed at the German government's lack of courage to stand up to the US. On the other hand, if I was Snowden, I would not go to Germany even if the government was on their knees begging me to come here, given the number of US soldiers and intelligence operatives stationed in Germany. So the whole question if Germany should offer asylum to Snowden seems kind of hypothetical to me.