7 ms·

Uber offices raided in Paris by French police in 'car-pooling' controversy

46 points by grej 12y ago

cssmoo 12y ago
Every time someone kicks Uber down, all it does is make me more sympathetic to their business. I've had nothing but expensive, shit service with no recourse or customer support from official regulated services. They operate like the government does in the film Brazil.
- aikah 12y ago
  while Uber is useful, let's not kid ourselves. they are just new middlemen replacing the old ones. I just can't bear Uber arrogance as they think they can just violate local laws because they are "useful".There is no justification for that. While there may be a specific mindset regarding the law in US, most European countries do not work that way at all. French regulators will come very hard on Uber if they think they can just ignore laws.
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    It's pretty impossible having a centralized dispatch service that anyone can join without there being a "middleman" of some kind. Someone's got to write the software and vet the drivers, after all. I love Uber's arrogance. The local laws being violated are more often than not the product of regulatory capture, inefficient processes, and antiquated eras. The regulators have been whining like crazy about "unsafe drivers" and all sorts of other downright libelous nonsense that it takes nothing short of flouting the rules to disprove, to say "It turns out that when we ignore the regulators, the world doesn't actually end after all, and in some cases actually gets better" - a valuable lesson for business and everyperson alike. No person with power likes being ignored, so you get actions like this. Petty tyrants, retaliating at the slight. That's how I see the governments in this case.
    - aikah 12y ago
      > I love Uber's arrogance. And I love them getting bitch slapped by european regulators as they fail to understand the "european mindset". This isn't the farwest here.
      - eruditely 12y ago
        Uber is doing a productive thing and reduces the number of fatalities and drunk driving deaths. You are obviously stuck in some state of acute infantilism of perceiving dominance games when we should be talking about the results.
        aikah 12y ago
        The result is Uber getting sanctionned over their predatory behavior in Europe. I don't care what Uber does since it's mostly illegal in France. A private corporation does not get to make the laws. If they want to change the law they need to respect it at first place then join the democratic process ,end of story.
        forrestthewoods 12y ago
        "they need to respect it at first place then join the democratic process" Except clearly they don't. The democratic process is broken. Politicians have no incentive to change laws. Uber's modus operandi is to ignore those laws and build strong public support to force change. It works very well. Uber is happy. Joe public is happy. And politicians can pass new regulations shockingly quick when their job is on the line.
        eruditely 12y ago
        If drunk driving deaths are reduced then it's worth it.
  - forrestthewoods 12y ago
    There is absolutely justification. Local laws are unnecessarily causing harm to consumers. Uber is blatantly ignoring those laws to get consumers on their side. This leads to the laws changing. Seattle's broken ass cab system proposed creating a ride hailing app a few years ago. They were stopped because no one was willing to update laws. Then Uber and Lyft came in. Those laws have now been changed and the old, broken system is being allowed to update to become slightly less shitty. It's still awful though. Uber plays a dangerous game. They know the risks. They're willing to take them. I have zero issues with this. I do have issues with anti-consumer regulations that primarily exist to protect entrenched business owners.
    - anon1385 12y ago
      More accurately: Uninsured Uber drivers are causing harm to other road users. Uber is blatantly ignoring the law to make more money at the expense of the rest of society. This leads to Uber getting punished by the courts. No laws need changing.
    - JonFish85 12y ago
      Uber plays a dangerous game and knows the risks, sure. What about the consumers? They're getting into vehicles that are probably underinsured. Do they know the risks? If they are involved in some sort of accident, do they realize that Uber is going to wash their hands of the incident and point at the "independent contractor"?
    - Loughla 12y ago
      Do you honestly think it's fair and a good idea to break the law, if you believe it's in the consumer's best interest?
    - DanBC 12y ago
      How do you know the local law for every territory where Uber operates? Because in London Uber could very easily obey the law but they chose not to.
  - eloisant 12y ago
    The problem in a nutshell is that the current laws are bad for consumers, but they're not changing because of lobbying. That's why many people are happy to see Uber kicking the anthill. What Uber unlocks, others (like Lyft) benefit too.
  - dilap 12y ago
    I sorrrrrt of see where you're coming from, but in my experiences Uber/Lyft are just way, way better in almost every way than the taxis they are replacing. Including safety. (Though it would be interesting to see stats on this; do they exist?) If the reality on the ground conflicts with the theory behind the laws, the laws should change. Nothing wrong with helping to make that happen by a little calculated disobedience in my opinion.
- twoodfin 12y ago
  I was in Orlando, Florida a couple of weeks ago, where the city government has outlawed charging less than a minimum per-mile fare some 3x what UberX charges: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-uber-taxi-drivers-20150123-story.html http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-uber-ta... Of course, UberX drivers are still out there saving people money over the virtual monopoly held there by big cab companies like Mears. From Uber's point of view, I can't see why not. Every ticket the city issues for being too cheap is a PR win for them.
- saiya-jin 12y ago
  that's what happens with long-term monopoly. although I don't use taxis at all, I grow more sympathies every time somebody fights them too. They're disruptive force, good for customers, bad for those unionized drivers afraid of competition. we as potential customers can only gain in more competitive environment.
- anon1385 12y ago
  It's not evil government regulations that leads to Uber drivers being uninsured. It's private insurance companies who, aware of the greater risks, don't cover commercial driving as part of their regular insurance policies. So it's a case of the free insurance market working correctly to price risk, and Uber coming in and shitting all over that and effectively asking for governments to legislate to exclude Uber drivers from the normal insurance market by allowing them to drive commercially without commercial insurance. If Uber gets their way it would mean jacking up insurance prices for everybody and making the insurance market far less efficient. Why should wider society pay to insure Uber drivers just to make Uber more profitable?
  - analyst74 12y ago
    Down in this thread someone posted a link about drivers are covered by Uber insurance while using the Uber app. https://help.uber.com/h/3c76c923-3818-4330-a0a1-b5fc9310ed39 https://help.uber.com/h/3c76c923-3818-4330-a0a1-b5fc9310ed39 Isn't this enough to replace commercial insurance?
    - DanBC 12y ago
      That is only America, and only ride-sharing. https://help.uber.com/h/f7fbe4af-c0db-4406-9ee5-59613b38a84e https://help.uber.com/h/f7fbe4af-c0db-4406-9ee5-59613b38a84e > There are a number of insurance providers that offer policies for ridesharing. Uber recommends working with your insurance agent to find a plan that works for you. > For US ridesharing partners only, please note that although the Rasier policy will act as primary insurance while you are using the Uber Partner app, keep in mind that all partners must also carry personal auto insurance.
yeahyeah 12y ago
This nearly had me clicking, before I realized it didn't actually say 'car-poodling'
danjones 12y ago
I honestly don't understand what Uber is trying to accomplish with the integration of non-professional drivers into it's taxi platform. It's devaluing their actual taxi service. By failing to address the serious safety concerns head on they're opening themselves up to litigation that they don't need and also removing trust in the overall brand. All for what, getting more drivers, you've got to ask, is it worth it?
- lnanek2 12y ago
  I've always picked the cheapest option in Uber and I've never gotten a bad ride. I very frequently get bad rides with Taxis, the most common being when you call them and they never show up because they just pickup someone else without and repercussions. An Uber driver would get rated out immediately for that. That require a very high rating. So I honestly don't understand why you are against them having more local drivers. There are definitely underserved areas outside the major cities.
- dEnigma 12y ago
  Serious question: What exactly are the safety concerns? Both driver and customer are easily identifiable since they both connect using the Uber app, so it would be really stupid for either of them to commit a crime during the ride. If you mean non-professional drivers having accidents in traffic, I think that shouldn't be that much of a concern since everyone with a drivers license should be able to get through traffic safely.
  - fweespeech 12y ago
    How much do you want to bet if I stole a driver's phone the app would stay logged in and I could pretend to be them? A phone is much easier to take than a car. Even with a picture, I could just wear stuff that obscures my hair, etc. so they wouldn't get a good look to the difference.
    - dnautics 12y ago
      You would still need their car, as the passenger side identifies the vehicle with license plate.
at-fates-hands 12y ago
From the article: "The service uses non-professional drivers who may not be licensed or insured, raising safety concerns. Some have poor local knowledge so potentially offer a poor customer experience." Is this really common in France? To have an abundance of unlicensed and uninsured motorists? I thought that was against the law in most countries. I wouldn't think this would be a specific issue with Uber drivers if its the case where this is common. Also, doesn't Uber use people who live the areas they drive in? How would they have poor knowledge of an area they live in?
- scidev 12y ago
  They are licensed and insured to drive, but not for professional transportation of people.
- bsaul 12y ago
  Should that service become popular, You may very well start to see recently arrived immigrants ( or even illegal ones) being exploited by mob-like networks to operate as cab drivers. But at the moment, i highly doubt that's the main scenario, by far.
- aikah 12y ago
  > To have an abundance of unlicensed and uninsured motorists? You need a specific insurance if you drive people for profits.
- Keats 12y ago
  I'm guessing you don't need the same insurance when you're working as a taxi.
- babebridou 12y ago
  It is, actually, an issue specific to driving businesses, and Uber is far more lenient than the law. Uninsured and unlicensed drivers are normally very rare because many, many people in large cities such as Paris (where Taxis services thrive) very rarely drive. Companies such as Uber incentivize unlicensed and uninsured motorists to drive by making it profitable with seemingly far less control than existing businesses, hence the panic reaction and public debate on the matter. Paris is relatively small but very dense, and can be maze-like. You can live in Paris and be completely lost a few hundred meters away from your place. Streets and directions are hard to follow and remember, and distances are skewed by traffic, one-way-streets, pedestrian zones, bus lanes and cycle lanes. Some streets open and close depending on the hour of the day/night or the season. It can seriously be a mess and you simply can't assume you're going to be a decent professional Parisian driver just because you live in Paris. Lastly we all have a proper ID, so it's absolutely viable not to have a driver's license at all (provided you don't drive). Driving itself in Paris is generally a time-sink and a money sink. You only drive when you don't have a choice. For me, that's only when I'm on holiday away from the city. Insurance is another matter, and yes it's illegal to drive an uninsured vehicle, and you also need a special license to drive for profit.
tomblomfield 12y ago
I travelled in an UberPOP during a recent trip to Paris last month. The driver asked that I sit in the front seat because police had been pulling over private cars with passengers in the back, trying to catch unlicensed cab drivers.

46 points by grej 12y ago

Every time someone kicks Uber down, all it does is make me more sympathetic to their business. I've had nothing but expensive, shit service with no recourse or customer support from official regulated services. They operate like the government does in the film Brazil.

aikah 12y ago
while Uber is useful, let's not kid ourselves. they are just new middlemen replacing the old ones. I just can't bear Uber arrogance as they think they can just violate local laws because they are "useful".There is no justification for that. While there may be a specific mindset regarding the law in US, most European countries do not work that way at all. French regulators will come very hard on Uber if they think they can just ignore laws.
- Karunamon 12y ago
  It's pretty impossible having a centralized dispatch service that anyone can join without there being a "middleman" of some kind. Someone's got to write the software and vet the drivers, after all. I love Uber's arrogance. The local laws being violated are more often than not the product of regulatory capture, inefficient processes, and antiquated eras. The regulators have been whining like crazy about "unsafe drivers" and all sorts of other downright libelous nonsense that it takes nothing short of flouting the rules to disprove, to say "It turns out that when we ignore the regulators, the world doesn't actually end after all, and in some cases actually gets better" - a valuable lesson for business and everyperson alike. No person with power likes being ignored, so you get actions like this. Petty tyrants, retaliating at the slight. That's how I see the governments in this case.
  - aikah 12y ago
    > I love Uber's arrogance. And I love them getting bitch slapped by european regulators as they fail to understand the "european mindset". This isn't the farwest here.
    - eruditely 12y ago
      Uber is doing a productive thing and reduces the number of fatalities and drunk driving deaths. You are obviously stuck in some state of acute infantilism of perceiving dominance games when we should be talking about the results.
      - aikah 12y ago
        The result is Uber getting sanctionned over their predatory behavior in Europe. I don't care what Uber does since it's mostly illegal in France. A private corporation does not get to make the laws. If they want to change the law they need to respect it at first place then join the democratic process ,end of story.
        forrestthewoods 12y ago
        "they need to respect it at first place then join the democratic process" Except clearly they don't. The democratic process is broken. Politicians have no incentive to change laws. Uber's modus operandi is to ignore those laws and build strong public support to force change. It works very well. Uber is happy. Joe public is happy. And politicians can pass new regulations shockingly quick when their job is on the line.
        eruditely 12y ago
        If drunk driving deaths are reduced then it's worth it.
- forrestthewoods 12y ago
  There is absolutely justification. Local laws are unnecessarily causing harm to consumers. Uber is blatantly ignoring those laws to get consumers on their side. This leads to the laws changing. Seattle's broken ass cab system proposed creating a ride hailing app a few years ago. They were stopped because no one was willing to update laws. Then Uber and Lyft came in. Those laws have now been changed and the old, broken system is being allowed to update to become slightly less shitty. It's still awful though. Uber plays a dangerous game. They know the risks. They're willing to take them. I have zero issues with this. I do have issues with anti-consumer regulations that primarily exist to protect entrenched business owners.
  - anon1385 12y ago
    More accurately: Uninsured Uber drivers are causing harm to other road users. Uber is blatantly ignoring the law to make more money at the expense of the rest of society. This leads to Uber getting punished by the courts. No laws need changing.
  - JonFish85 12y ago
    Uber plays a dangerous game and knows the risks, sure. What about the consumers? They're getting into vehicles that are probably underinsured. Do they know the risks? If they are involved in some sort of accident, do they realize that Uber is going to wash their hands of the incident and point at the "independent contractor"?
  - Loughla 12y ago
    Do you honestly think it's fair and a good idea to break the law, if you believe it's in the consumer's best interest?
  - DanBC 12y ago
    How do you know the local law for every territory where Uber operates? Because in London Uber could very easily obey the law but they chose not to.
- eloisant 12y ago
  The problem in a nutshell is that the current laws are bad for consumers, but they're not changing because of lobbying. That's why many people are happy to see Uber kicking the anthill. What Uber unlocks, others (like Lyft) benefit too.
- dilap 12y ago
  I sorrrrrt of see where you're coming from, but in my experiences Uber/Lyft are just way, way better in almost every way than the taxis they are replacing. Including safety. (Though it would be interesting to see stats on this; do they exist?) If the reality on the ground conflicts with the theory behind the laws, the laws should change. Nothing wrong with helping to make that happen by a little calculated disobedience in my opinion.
twoodfin 12y ago
I was in Orlando, Florida a couple of weeks ago, where the city government has outlawed charging less than a minimum per-mile fare some 3x what UberX charges: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-uber-taxi-drivers-20150123-story.html http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-uber-ta... Of course, UberX drivers are still out there saving people money over the virtual monopoly held there by big cab companies like Mears. From Uber's point of view, I can't see why not. Every ticket the city issues for being too cheap is a PR win for them.
saiya-jin 12y ago
that's what happens with long-term monopoly. although I don't use taxis at all, I grow more sympathies every time somebody fights them too. They're disruptive force, good for customers, bad for those unionized drivers afraid of competition. we as potential customers can only gain in more competitive environment.
anon1385 12y ago
It's not evil government regulations that leads to Uber drivers being uninsured. It's private insurance companies who, aware of the greater risks, don't cover commercial driving as part of their regular insurance policies. So it's a case of the free insurance market working correctly to price risk, and Uber coming in and shitting all over that and effectively asking for governments to legislate to exclude Uber drivers from the normal insurance market by allowing them to drive commercially without commercial insurance. If Uber gets their way it would mean jacking up insurance prices for everybody and making the insurance market far less efficient. Why should wider society pay to insure Uber drivers just to make Uber more profitable?
- analyst74 12y ago
  Down in this thread someone posted a link about drivers are covered by Uber insurance while using the Uber app. https://help.uber.com/h/3c76c923-3818-4330-a0a1-b5fc9310ed39 https://help.uber.com/h/3c76c923-3818-4330-a0a1-b5fc9310ed39 Isn't this enough to replace commercial insurance?
  - DanBC 12y ago
    That is only America, and only ride-sharing. https://help.uber.com/h/f7fbe4af-c0db-4406-9ee5-59613b38a84e https://help.uber.com/h/f7fbe4af-c0db-4406-9ee5-59613b38a84e > There are a number of insurance providers that offer policies for ridesharing. Uber recommends working with your insurance agent to find a plan that works for you. > For US ridesharing partners only, please note that although the Rasier policy will act as primary insurance while you are using the Uber Partner app, keep in mind that all partners must also carry personal auto insurance.

yeahyeah 12y ago

This nearly had me clicking, before I realized it didn't actually say 'car-poodling'

danjones 12y ago

I honestly don't understand what Uber is trying to accomplish with the integration of non-professional drivers into it's taxi platform. It's devaluing their actual taxi service. By failing to address the serious safety concerns head on they're opening themselves up to litigation that they don't need and also removing trust in the overall brand. All for what, getting more drivers, you've got to ask, is it worth it?

lnanek2 12y ago
I've always picked the cheapest option in Uber and I've never gotten a bad ride. I very frequently get bad rides with Taxis, the most common being when you call them and they never show up because they just pickup someone else without and repercussions. An Uber driver would get rated out immediately for that. That require a very high rating. So I honestly don't understand why you are against them having more local drivers. There are definitely underserved areas outside the major cities.
dEnigma 12y ago
Serious question: What exactly are the safety concerns? Both driver and customer are easily identifiable since they both connect using the Uber app, so it would be really stupid for either of them to commit a crime during the ride. If you mean non-professional drivers having accidents in traffic, I think that shouldn't be that much of a concern since everyone with a drivers license should be able to get through traffic safely.
- fweespeech 12y ago
  How much do you want to bet if I stole a driver's phone the app would stay logged in and I could pretend to be them? A phone is much easier to take than a car. Even with a picture, I could just wear stuff that obscures my hair, etc. so they wouldn't get a good look to the difference.
  - dnautics 12y ago
    You would still need their car, as the passenger side identifies the vehicle with license plate.

at-fates-hands 12y ago

From the article: "The service uses non-professional drivers who may not be licensed or insured, raising safety concerns. Some have poor local knowledge so potentially offer a poor customer experience." Is this really common in France? To have an abundance of unlicensed and uninsured motorists? I thought that was against the law in most countries. I wouldn't think this would be a specific issue with Uber drivers if its the case where this is common. Also, doesn't Uber use people who live the areas they drive in? How would they have poor knowledge of an area they live in?

scidev 12y ago
They are licensed and insured to drive, but not for professional transportation of people.
bsaul 12y ago
Should that service become popular, You may very well start to see recently arrived immigrants ( or even illegal ones) being exploited by mob-like networks to operate as cab drivers. But at the moment, i highly doubt that's the main scenario, by far.
aikah 12y ago
> To have an abundance of unlicensed and uninsured motorists? You need a specific insurance if you drive people for profits.
Keats 12y ago
I'm guessing you don't need the same insurance when you're working as a taxi.
babebridou 12y ago
It is, actually, an issue specific to driving businesses, and Uber is far more lenient than the law. Uninsured and unlicensed drivers are normally very rare because many, many people in large cities such as Paris (where Taxis services thrive) very rarely drive. Companies such as Uber incentivize unlicensed and uninsured motorists to drive by making it profitable with seemingly far less control than existing businesses, hence the panic reaction and public debate on the matter. Paris is relatively small but very dense, and can be maze-like. You can live in Paris and be completely lost a few hundred meters away from your place. Streets and directions are hard to follow and remember, and distances are skewed by traffic, one-way-streets, pedestrian zones, bus lanes and cycle lanes. Some streets open and close depending on the hour of the day/night or the season. It can seriously be a mess and you simply can't assume you're going to be a decent professional Parisian driver just because you live in Paris. Lastly we all have a proper ID, so it's absolutely viable not to have a driver's license at all (provided you don't drive). Driving itself in Paris is generally a time-sink and a money sink. You only drive when you don't have a choice. For me, that's only when I'm on holiday away from the city. Insurance is another matter, and yes it's illegal to drive an uninsured vehicle, and you also need a special license to drive for profit.

tomblomfield 12y ago

I travelled in an UberPOP during a recent trip to Paris last month. The driver asked that I sit in the front seat because police had been pulling over private cars with passengers in the back, trying to catch unlicensed cab drivers.