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Meanwhile in Germany the pirate party is once again completely irrelevant. Thanks to the debate culture of mailing lists and twitter, fractionism, us-vs-them th

by 1ris 12y ago

Meanwhile in Germany the pirate party is once again completely irrelevant. Thanks to the debate culture of mailing lists and twitter, fractionism, us-vs-them thinking and the refusal to throw trolls/idiots out of the party. And a hole lot of feminism drama helped.

creshal 12y ago
The German pirate party is in the peculiar spot where communists, nazis, feminists, men's rights activists, liberals and conservatives are all convinced they're too radical. That does not leave many potential voters.
- tormeh 12y ago
  Why doesn't men's rights activists call themselves masculinists? Easy way to use language to redefine feminism as a women-only thing. Easy points. And then conventional feminism could be redefined as equalism or whatever and the language pedantic in me would rest easy.
  - innguest 12y ago
    Because that's wrong derivation? pro-woman -> woman in Latin is femina -> feminism pro-man -> man in Latin is vir -> virilism (sounds stupid). That's why.
    - shkkmo 12y ago
      I doubt that's actually why, but it is an interesting fact to know.
    - LukeShu 12y ago
      But "mās" is also Latin for man? We see that used with feminine/masculine. Is there a reason it would be different in this case?
      - innguest 12y ago
        Yes, there is a reason. woman -> femina, related to women -> femininus man -> vir, related to men -> mas As you can see it seems even the Romans did not like to make derivations from the old, old word "vir" (also see etymology for "world"). Feminine is from 'femininus', not 'femina'. Masculine is from 'mas' -> 'masculus' (diminutive of 'mas') -> 'masculinus', not 'vir'. 'Mas' was never used to mean "man", only "male". If instead of "feminism", the movement were called "femininism", then the opposite would indeed be "masculinism" as you suggest. But the opposite of "feminism" must be "virilism".
- 1ris 12y ago
  No, it's the exact opposite. It's a place where all these are welcome. Denie the holocaust, fine you can stay in the party. On the left side, celebrate war crimes? Fine. Which does not leave any potential for voters either.
  - creshal 12y ago
    > No, it's the exact opposite. It's a place where all these are welcome. Yeah, so left-wing voters avoid the party because of the right-wing extremists in it; right-wing voters avoid it because of its left-wing extremists; …
  - ExpiredLink 12y ago
    Denying the holocaust is - literally - a crime in Germany and other European countries.
    - 1ris 12y ago
      Yes. Stresses the point it was almost impossbile to get thrown out. IMO the failure of the pirate party was the result of the refusal to excude anybody. Absolutely no standard of decency or adherence to any kind of policy or political agenda was required. For Mailinglist or webforums that works quite well. But not for a political party, these require some kind of shared values. Not feeding the trolls is pointless if the newspapers are feeding them.
pjc50 12y ago
Well, in Germany you have die Linke, who are considerably better organised and generally on the right side of "internet" issues. So the pirate party is less necessary and more of a swamp of cranks.
- contergan 12y ago
  Die Linke ist just the rebranded KPD (Communist Party), which was later transformed into the SED (Socialist Party of the former GDR) and is now Die Linke. They might be on the right side of internet issues, but they are very much on the wrong side of much more important issues.
  - creshal 12y ago
    Die Linke is an amalgamation of a lot of parties, among them the former left wing of the SPD (shortly independent as WASG), and purged 95% of its former SED members during reunification. Sure, they're communists. But they're not the same as the Stalinist, Soviet-controlled SED.
    - this_user 12y ago
      And yet to this very day they refuse to condemn the acts of the GDR. They're nothing but a bunch of populists who will tell you anything to get your vote. I found an election campaign some years ago where they were running two different posters especially amusing. One read: "Wealth for everyone" and the other read: "Tax wealth!". So, what they really want are more taxes for everyone?
      - Nullabillity 12y ago
        Makes perfect sense to me. Tax the wealthy, use the extra income to fight poverty, creating a baseline of wealth for everyone. More or less the policy of every social democratic party ever.
- 1ris 12y ago
  The Left has no less cranks, they just know better when to shut up.
waitwaitwhay 12y ago
Same in Sweden.
woah 12y ago
I went to Berlin, and the Pirate Party had a bunch of stupid anti-housing-construction posters up (like you see from the NIMBYs in SF). Seems that they have drifted from their origins of internet freedom. Reminds me of Occupy SF- it started out as a group of motivated, charismatic people trying to get the thieves in the banks jailed, ended up with random crazies blathering about chemtrails in the general assembly for half an hour and shooting up in tents.
- 1ris 12y ago
  It was even worse. Occupy did never chant slogans in favour of banks. The Berlin pirate party had influential members that did advocate Internet censorship. (For non culture sensitive stuff)

by 1ris 12y ago

creshal 12y ago

The German pirate party is in the peculiar spot where communists, nazis, feminists, men's rights activists, liberals and conservatives are all convinced they're too radical. That does not leave many potential voters.

tormeh 12y ago
Why doesn't men's rights activists call themselves masculinists? Easy way to use language to redefine feminism as a women-only thing. Easy points. And then conventional feminism could be redefined as equalism or whatever and the language pedantic in me would rest easy.
- innguest 12y ago
  Because that's wrong derivation? pro-woman -> woman in Latin is femina -> feminism pro-man -> man in Latin is vir -> virilism (sounds stupid). That's why.
  - shkkmo 12y ago
    I doubt that's actually why, but it is an interesting fact to know.
  - LukeShu 12y ago
    But "mās" is also Latin for man? We see that used with feminine/masculine. Is there a reason it would be different in this case?
    - innguest 12y ago
      Yes, there is a reason. woman -> femina, related to women -> femininus man -> vir, related to men -> mas As you can see it seems even the Romans did not like to make derivations from the old, old word "vir" (also see etymology for "world"). Feminine is from 'femininus', not 'femina'. Masculine is from 'mas' -> 'masculus' (diminutive of 'mas') -> 'masculinus', not 'vir'. 'Mas' was never used to mean "man", only "male". If instead of "feminism", the movement were called "femininism", then the opposite would indeed be "masculinism" as you suggest. But the opposite of "feminism" must be "virilism".
1ris 12y ago
No, it's the exact opposite. It's a place where all these are welcome. Denie the holocaust, fine you can stay in the party. On the left side, celebrate war crimes? Fine. Which does not leave any potential for voters either.
- creshal 12y ago
  > No, it's the exact opposite. It's a place where all these are welcome. Yeah, so left-wing voters avoid the party because of the right-wing extremists in it; right-wing voters avoid it because of its left-wing extremists; …
- ExpiredLink 12y ago
  Denying the holocaust is - literally - a crime in Germany and other European countries.
  - 1ris 12y ago
    Yes. Stresses the point it was almost impossbile to get thrown out. IMO the failure of the pirate party was the result of the refusal to excude anybody. Absolutely no standard of decency or adherence to any kind of policy or political agenda was required. For Mailinglist or webforums that works quite well. But not for a political party, these require some kind of shared values. Not feeding the trolls is pointless if the newspapers are feeding them.

pjc50 12y ago

Well, in Germany you have die Linke, who are considerably better organised and generally on the right side of "internet" issues. So the pirate party is less necessary and more of a swamp of cranks.

contergan 12y ago
Die Linke ist just the rebranded KPD (Communist Party), which was later transformed into the SED (Socialist Party of the former GDR) and is now Die Linke. They might be on the right side of internet issues, but they are very much on the wrong side of much more important issues.
- creshal 12y ago
  Die Linke is an amalgamation of a lot of parties, among them the former left wing of the SPD (shortly independent as WASG), and purged 95% of its former SED members during reunification. Sure, they're communists. But they're not the same as the Stalinist, Soviet-controlled SED.
  - this_user 12y ago
    And yet to this very day they refuse to condemn the acts of the GDR. They're nothing but a bunch of populists who will tell you anything to get your vote. I found an election campaign some years ago where they were running two different posters especially amusing. One read: "Wealth for everyone" and the other read: "Tax wealth!". So, what they really want are more taxes for everyone?
    - Nullabillity 12y ago
      Makes perfect sense to me. Tax the wealthy, use the extra income to fight poverty, creating a baseline of wealth for everyone. More or less the policy of every social democratic party ever.
1ris 12y ago
The Left has no less cranks, they just know better when to shut up.

waitwaitwhay 12y ago

Same in Sweden.

woah 12y ago

I went to Berlin, and the Pirate Party had a bunch of stupid anti-housing-construction posters up (like you see from the NIMBYs in SF). Seems that they have drifted from their origins of internet freedom. Reminds me of Occupy SF- it started out as a group of motivated, charismatic people trying to get the thieves in the banks jailed, ended up with random crazies blathering about chemtrails in the general assembly for half an hour and shooting up in tents.

1ris 12y ago
It was even worse. Occupy did never chant slogans in favour of banks. The Berlin pirate party had influential members that did advocate Internet censorship. (For non culture sensitive stuff)