4 ms·

We don't expect criminals to consent to being prosecuted. Those parallels really don't make a lot of sense.

by mhaymo 12y ago

Spooky23 12y ago
The problem is that everyone is viewed as a perp, particularly if you are black. "Innocent until proven guilty" means something.
- rayiner 12y ago
  It means something specific: at trial, the police must prove your guilt by a reasonable doubt, and doubt is resolved in favor of the accused. That's all it means. This is not to say that law enforcement doesn't need to cut back on the aggressive tactics. But rather that the presumption of innocence has nothing to do with why.
  - vdaniuk 12y ago
    You are conveniently ignoring a great number of plea deals when 'justice' is served without a case being heard in court.
    - rayiner 12y ago
      Pleas aren't scrutinized by trial, but they are heard in court: http://wakeforestlawreview.com/2015/01/fourth-circuit-holds-guilty-plea-was-supported-by-an-adequate-factual-basis http://wakeforestlawreview.com/2015/01/fourth-circuit-holds-.... At least at the federal level, judges may only accept a guilty plea after conducting a colloquy with the defendant and convincing themselves that the plea is voluntary, the defendant knows his rights and consequences of the plea, and that there is a factual basis for the plea. In federal courts, the factual basis will usually be a detailed document enumerating the facts the prosecution is prepared to prove at trial, which if proven will establish the defendant's guilt.
  - metaphorm 12y ago
    "innocent until proven guilty" is both a legal and an ethical doctrine. in the legal sense it establishes that the burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defense. in the ethical sense it informs us to avoid persecution, ostracism, or other extra-judicial punishments of a person who is merely accused of a crime.
SilasX 12y ago
I was talking about consent to searches and giving statements, where it's admitted in the basis of consent being given.
- metaphorm 12y ago
  the same logic applies though. we don't expect suspects to consent to incriminating themselves.
  - SilasX 12y ago
    And we don't expect people to just give their health to medical research either, but we still require consent, and don't accept a fuzzy, intimidated substitute.

We don't expect criminals to consent to being prosecuted. Those parallels really don't make a lot of sense.

by mhaymo 12y ago

We don't expect criminals to consent to being prosecuted. Those parallels really don't make a lot of sense.

The problem is that everyone is viewed as a perp, particularly if you are black. "Innocent until proven guilty" means something.

rayiner 12y ago
It means something specific: at trial, the police must prove your guilt by a reasonable doubt, and doubt is resolved in favor of the accused. That's all it means. This is not to say that law enforcement doesn't need to cut back on the aggressive tactics. But rather that the presumption of innocence has nothing to do with why.
- vdaniuk 12y ago
  You are conveniently ignoring a great number of plea deals when 'justice' is served without a case being heard in court.
  - rayiner 12y ago
    Pleas aren't scrutinized by trial, but they are heard in court: http://wakeforestlawreview.com/2015/01/fourth-circuit-holds-guilty-plea-was-supported-by-an-adequate-factual-basis http://wakeforestlawreview.com/2015/01/fourth-circuit-holds-.... At least at the federal level, judges may only accept a guilty plea after conducting a colloquy with the defendant and convincing themselves that the plea is voluntary, the defendant knows his rights and consequences of the plea, and that there is a factual basis for the plea. In federal courts, the factual basis will usually be a detailed document enumerating the facts the prosecution is prepared to prove at trial, which if proven will establish the defendant's guilt.
- metaphorm 12y ago
  "innocent until proven guilty" is both a legal and an ethical doctrine. in the legal sense it establishes that the burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defense. in the ethical sense it informs us to avoid persecution, ostracism, or other extra-judicial punishments of a person who is merely accused of a crime.

SilasX 12y ago

I was talking about consent to searches and giving statements, where it's admitted in the basis of consent being given.

metaphorm 12y ago
the same logic applies though. we don't expect suspects to consent to incriminating themselves.
- SilasX 12y ago
  And we don't expect people to just give their health to medical research either, but we still require consent, and don't accept a fuzzy, intimidated substitute.