5 ms·

I thought everyone knew this. Never talk to representatives or agents of the US federal government without your lawyer present. Never, ever, ever. When they

by tsotha 12y ago

I thought everyone knew this. Never talk to representatives or agents of the US federal government without your lawyer present. Never, ever, ever. When they make contact, ask them for a phone number your lawyer can call. Ask them what matter the questions will be regarding. Get a card if it's in person. They're going to tell you there's no reason to hire a lawyer and you can clear the whole thing up in five minutes if you talk to them. They're lying, which is something they can do legally, but if you do it you're off to the gray bar hotel. http://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/how-to-avoid-going-to-jail-under-18-u-s-c-section-1001-for-lying.html http://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/how-to-avoi...

ptaipale 12y ago
That is slightly weird. How would I, for instance, arrange a lawyer to be present when I step out of a plane at JFK and talk to the immigration officer, who quite legitimately just wants to see my passport? He'll also be asking questions which I'm obliged to answer. There's no choice, but there's seldom any trouble, either.
- tajen 12y ago
  The OP talks about local police. In US, the customs are unfortunately a very different form of jurisdiction. Sometimes I hear citizen aren't in the US jurisdiction until they've crossed the border. Which is a problem that US citizens probably need to solve through their democracy. Centuries ago, constitutions were written to protect citizen with a heavy focus on local police scopes, but now that we all routinely walk through borders and on planes, we probably need to rewrite those constitutions with international police checks in focus. We can't afford to be in a no-law situation a dozen times a year.
  - pluma 12y ago
    Actually, the "airports aren't national territory" myth has no legal basis and is mostly just propagated to make it easier to turn people away. Legally, once you leave the plane, you're under the jurisdiction of whichever country you landed in. Unlike embassies, airports aren't anything special in that regard. But sadly it doesn't really matter what international law actually says but how laws are enforced. Good luck escalating to the Hague over whether or not the TSA can detain you or refuse entry.
- jpatokal 12y ago
  If you're a US citizen returning to the US, you actually are not obliged to answer their questions. That said, this is a pretty grey area and they certainly don't like it if you don't. https://greyenigma.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/i-am-detained-by-the-feds-for-not-answering-questions-nomad-lawyer/ https://greyenigma.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/i-am-detained-by...
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    Right, that's nice to know. I'm not a US citizen though, so I think I really need to answer those questions - without a lawyer - unless I want to be put back to the next plane heading back where I came from.
    - coldpie 12y ago
      Basically, yes. It's an ugly situation and lots of people take the stance of never visiting the US because of it.
      - foldr 12y ago
        You can be subject to the same kind of questioning when entering any country. The only way to be sure of avoiding it would be never to travel abroad.
        ptaipale 12y ago
        True. The questions on U.S. border may sometimes be a bit more strange and thorough than in other countries, to the point of obnoxiousness, but there are similarities in the immigration point to many countries. And there are some grounds for why it is like this in the U.S. - after all, U.S. is the top destination for illegal immigration. The visa and ESTA forms really should get rid of questions about whether I was involved in the crimes of Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1945. Snare me all right, but snare me with something more relevant today.

by tsotha 12y ago

ptaipale 12y ago

That is slightly weird. How would I, for instance, arrange a lawyer to be present when I step out of a plane at JFK and talk to the immigration officer, who quite legitimately just wants to see my passport? He'll also be asking questions which I'm obliged to answer. There's no choice, but there's seldom any trouble, either.

tajen 12y ago
The OP talks about local police. In US, the customs are unfortunately a very different form of jurisdiction. Sometimes I hear citizen aren't in the US jurisdiction until they've crossed the border. Which is a problem that US citizens probably need to solve through their democracy. Centuries ago, constitutions were written to protect citizen with a heavy focus on local police scopes, but now that we all routinely walk through borders and on planes, we probably need to rewrite those constitutions with international police checks in focus. We can't afford to be in a no-law situation a dozen times a year.
- pluma 12y ago
  Actually, the "airports aren't national territory" myth has no legal basis and is mostly just propagated to make it easier to turn people away. Legally, once you leave the plane, you're under the jurisdiction of whichever country you landed in. Unlike embassies, airports aren't anything special in that regard. But sadly it doesn't really matter what international law actually says but how laws are enforced. Good luck escalating to the Hague over whether or not the TSA can detain you or refuse entry.
jpatokal 12y ago
If you're a US citizen returning to the US, you actually are not obliged to answer their questions. That said, this is a pretty grey area and they certainly don't like it if you don't. https://greyenigma.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/i-am-detained-by-the-feds-for-not-answering-questions-nomad-lawyer/ https://greyenigma.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/i-am-detained-by...
- ptaipale 12y ago
  Right, that's nice to know. I'm not a US citizen though, so I think I really need to answer those questions - without a lawyer - unless I want to be put back to the next plane heading back where I came from.
  - coldpie 12y ago
    Basically, yes. It's an ugly situation and lots of people take the stance of never visiting the US because of it.
    - foldr 12y ago
      You can be subject to the same kind of questioning when entering any country. The only way to be sure of avoiding it would be never to travel abroad.
      - ptaipale 12y ago
        True. The questions on U.S. border may sometimes be a bit more strange and thorough than in other countries, to the point of obnoxiousness, but there are similarities in the immigration point to many countries. And there are some grounds for why it is like this in the U.S. - after all, U.S. is the top destination for illegal immigration. The visa and ESTA forms really should get rid of questions about whether I was involved in the crimes of Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1945. Snare me all right, but snare me with something more relevant today.