4 ms·

Lucky for you that you can show your work to people outside of your company, right? > Also the author says she knows "many" women who have had trouble contribu

Lucky for you that you can show your work to people outside of your company, right? > Also the author says she knows "many" women who have had trouble contributing to OSS based on how they were treated. GitHub should make it easy to provide examples of this right? Now you're being deliberately obtuse. Not everyone uses github, and not all communication happens through github.

multiplicity 12y ago
Keep in mind this is Ashe Dryden, who thinks being called a professional victim is misogynist. Paper-thin skin, but throwing stones from her glass house like there's no tomorrow. Open source's results-over-feelings approach turns off many, not just women.
malandrew 12y ago
I can't tell the gender of many people in opensource unless they use a username that indicates their gender. Looking at #thrift right now (a project I contribute to). I see 40 people not counting the channel bots. I count only 6 nicknames that suggest that they are likely to be men because they begin with names that are typically male names. The same is true for a lot of the github usernames I see. I wonder how of this self reporting by women who say they have trouble contributing because they are women is actual gender discrimination and how much is due to people who have grown accustomed to committing the fundamental attribution error [0] on themselves, instead of applying the rule of parsimony [1] and looking for alternative explanations that might better explain their difficulties. It's also important to apply Hanlon's Razor [2], "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.". Sometimes that stupidity (or ignorance) is the person rejecting your contributions, but it could also be your own stupidity (or ignorance). I have found that most people who try to contribute to open-source and fail have never read esr's classic "How to Ask Questions the Smart Way" [3] If you eliminate all identifier's of gender by using non-gendered handles and initials for your first name in your git config, you can safely look for other explanations for your difficulties contributing to open-source besides your gender. It's called applying the scientific method. If you hypothesis is "I'm having trouble contributing to open-source because of my gender", you should obfuscate your gender in your contributions to control for that variable. Once you eliminate it as a possible confounding factor, you're free to come up with alternative hypotheses for your difficulties. Personally, I don't have my name, gender, or location on my github profile. It's a community for contributing code, so all such metadata is irrelevant. I'm genuinely curious what percentage of github users cannot be determined to be male or female (which is a figure the author did not cite). [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor [3] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
- peri 12y ago
  Hi, I don't know your gender either, but I know lots of F/OSS developers whose names and legally represented genders have changed, even in projects I've committed to. There's a fairly big mix of attribution errors available, and ignoring the presence of silent women, non-binary folks, and transgender developers hasn't made my communities more welcoming to those folks. Community building is very, very hard work and it involves a lot more than linking to classics like ESR's smart questions. In fact, in my experience, those responses tend to put off newcomers with backgrounds that are different than programmers like me (and presumably you) who have been tinkering in this community since the early 90s. YMMV, of course, but I think personalities are incredibly important and the most valuable thing you can do in building big communities is making sure that as projects grow they gain stewards, shepherds, or whatever metaphor you prefer that can welcome as well as gatekeep.
  - malandrew 12y ago
    In fact, in my experience, those responses tend to put off newcomers with backgrounds that are different than programmers like me (and presumably you) who have been tinkering in this community since the early 90s. TBH, I have absolutely no problem if linking to an article like esr's smart questions it off-putting to some people. Meredith Patterson's "When Nerds Collide" best describes how I'd like to see our community grow: https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c If esr's smart questions is off-putting, then you're probably bringing values into the community that I don't want to see become common, especially the value that you've made a solid attempt to help yourself before you asked others to help you. If you can't or won't do that, then you'll never ever succeed in this community and this profession/hobby, because constantly asking questions and answer them yourself is a fundamental skill. Linking to an essay like esr's might be off-putting to women, no-binary and transgender developers, but it's also off-putting to cisgender developers. It's off-putting to any one who has grown accustomed to letting others do the work for them and who haven't developed a thick enough skin to accept a FAQ as an indirect response to their request for help. Lots of things about our community are off-putting to people regardless of gender identity or orientation. I myself am pansexual, identify as agender, but come across as cisgender (mainly because I choose my clothing based on comfort, fit and simplicity (I pretty much have all the same clothes and only need to make a determination on the color, since varying color is sufficient to eliminate the judgement that I wear the same clothes everyday)). If the aspects of our community that Meredith describes in her essay is off-putting to some, that's a good thing in my opinion because I don't want a culture in tech that is so accommodating that it evolves into including so much of the rest of society that it develops into having a notion of intersectionality that no longer accommodates weirdos. I have on more than one occasion seen very capable engineers rejected as a candidate because one or more people interpreted their aspie behaviors and mannerisms as "creepy". For example, being aware and accommodating of the mind-blindness off others is as important as being aware and accommodating of the gender and gender identities of others. My personal experience has been that identity politics drives people apart. It used to be that when I came across someone of a different gender or gender identity as my own, I paid it no attention. What mattered was that we all had engineering and programming things to nerd out over. Now I don't like going to engineering conferences anymore because the environment of gender politics is palpable. Instead I've directed more energy and time to IRC and Github where people are focused on more interesting things like the qualities of someone's contributions (code and ideas) and not their identity. If there is no culture of constructivism and proofs, it's probably not a forum I have interest in. Most conferences no longer represent a culture of constructivism and proofs. Only conferences like StrangeLoop, RacketCon, ErlangFactory, etc. interest me these days. Since they don't represent language communities that are also an active job market (ruby, python, javascript, go, php, java), they don't suffer nearly as much from identity politics overshadowing the computer science.

multiplicity 12y ago

Keep in mind this is Ashe Dryden, who thinks being called a professional victim is misogynist. Paper-thin skin, but throwing stones from her glass house like there's no tomorrow. Open source's results-over-feelings approach turns off many, not just women.

malandrew 12y ago

I can't tell the gender of many people in opensource unless they use a username that indicates their gender. Looking at #thrift right now (a project I contribute to). I see 40 people not counting the channel bots. I count only 6 nicknames that suggest that they are likely to be men because they begin with names that are typically male names. The same is true for a lot of the github usernames I see. I wonder how of this self reporting by women who say they have trouble contributing because they are women is actual gender discrimination and how much is due to people who have grown accustomed to committing the fundamental attribution error [0] on themselves, instead of applying the rule of parsimony [1] and looking for alternative explanations that might better explain their difficulties. It's also important to apply Hanlon's Razor [2], "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.". Sometimes that stupidity (or ignorance) is the person rejecting your contributions, but it could also be your own stupidity (or ignorance). I have found that most people who try to contribute to open-source and fail have never read esr's classic "How to Ask Questions the Smart Way" [3] If you eliminate all identifier's of gender by using non-gendered handles and initials for your first name in your git config, you can safely look for other explanations for your difficulties contributing to open-source besides your gender. It's called applying the scientific method. If you hypothesis is "I'm having trouble contributing to open-source because of my gender", you should obfuscate your gender in your contributions to control for that variable. Once you eliminate it as a possible confounding factor, you're free to come up with alternative hypotheses for your difficulties. Personally, I don't have my name, gender, or location on my github profile. It's a community for contributing code, so all such metadata is irrelevant. I'm genuinely curious what percentage of github users cannot be determined to be male or female (which is a figure the author did not cite). [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor [3] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

peri 12y ago
Hi, I don't know your gender either, but I know lots of F/OSS developers whose names and legally represented genders have changed, even in projects I've committed to. There's a fairly big mix of attribution errors available, and ignoring the presence of silent women, non-binary folks, and transgender developers hasn't made my communities more welcoming to those folks. Community building is very, very hard work and it involves a lot more than linking to classics like ESR's smart questions. In fact, in my experience, those responses tend to put off newcomers with backgrounds that are different than programmers like me (and presumably you) who have been tinkering in this community since the early 90s. YMMV, of course, but I think personalities are incredibly important and the most valuable thing you can do in building big communities is making sure that as projects grow they gain stewards, shepherds, or whatever metaphor you prefer that can welcome as well as gatekeep.
- malandrew 12y ago
  In fact, in my experience, those responses tend to put off newcomers with backgrounds that are different than programmers like me (and presumably you) who have been tinkering in this community since the early 90s. TBH, I have absolutely no problem if linking to an article like esr's smart questions it off-putting to some people. Meredith Patterson's "When Nerds Collide" best describes how I'd like to see our community grow: https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c If esr's smart questions is off-putting, then you're probably bringing values into the community that I don't want to see become common, especially the value that you've made a solid attempt to help yourself before you asked others to help you. If you can't or won't do that, then you'll never ever succeed in this community and this profession/hobby, because constantly asking questions and answer them yourself is a fundamental skill. Linking to an essay like esr's might be off-putting to women, no-binary and transgender developers, but it's also off-putting to cisgender developers. It's off-putting to any one who has grown accustomed to letting others do the work for them and who haven't developed a thick enough skin to accept a FAQ as an indirect response to their request for help. Lots of things about our community are off-putting to people regardless of gender identity or orientation. I myself am pansexual, identify as agender, but come across as cisgender (mainly because I choose my clothing based on comfort, fit and simplicity (I pretty much have all the same clothes and only need to make a determination on the color, since varying color is sufficient to eliminate the judgement that I wear the same clothes everyday)). If the aspects of our community that Meredith describes in her essay is off-putting to some, that's a good thing in my opinion because I don't want a culture in tech that is so accommodating that it evolves into including so much of the rest of society that it develops into having a notion of intersectionality that no longer accommodates weirdos. I have on more than one occasion seen very capable engineers rejected as a candidate because one or more people interpreted their aspie behaviors and mannerisms as "creepy". For example, being aware and accommodating of the mind-blindness off others is as important as being aware and accommodating of the gender and gender identities of others. My personal experience has been that identity politics drives people apart. It used to be that when I came across someone of a different gender or gender identity as my own, I paid it no attention. What mattered was that we all had engineering and programming things to nerd out over. Now I don't like going to engineering conferences anymore because the environment of gender politics is palpable. Instead I've directed more energy and time to IRC and Github where people are focused on more interesting things like the qualities of someone's contributions (code and ideas) and not their identity. If there is no culture of constructivism and proofs, it's probably not a forum I have interest in. Most conferences no longer represent a culture of constructivism and proofs. Only conferences like StrangeLoop, RacketCon, ErlangFactory, etc. interest me these days. Since they don't represent language communities that are also an active job market (ruby, python, javascript, go, php, java), they don't suffer nearly as much from identity politics overshadowing the computer science.