6 ms·

Stuff like this is going to be more and more common as govt doesn't want 25+ % of their population to be unemployed due to nerds churning out code.

by 1971genocide 12y ago

andrewpi 12y ago
Any evidence that Uber leads to more unemployment rather than less unemployment?
- michaelbuckbee 12y ago
  Uber have stated that they are developing self driving cars http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/03/technology/innovationnation/uber-self-driving-cars/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/03/technology/innovationnation/...
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    Wouldn't it then be more sensible to ban Google from doing business? If it is bad to develop new technology that utilizes resources (people, material, energy) more efficiently.
    - cssmoo 12y ago
      Isn't that called Marxism?
      - TeMPOraL 12y ago
        You mean utilizing resources in a more efficient manner? I think it could be called that.
- pluma 12y ago
  Calling Uber drivers "employed" is no different from calling temp agency workers "employed". It's not a solution to unemployment, it's an exploitation of people unable to find a job in societies where not having a job means living in poverty. They're not entrepreneurs either. They're workers who have the liberty of employees with the legal requirements of entrepreneurs. It's the worst of both worlds.
  - andrewpi 12y ago
    Temp agency workers are generally considered employed. Government statistics include temp workers as well.
    - pluma 12y ago
      Sure, except (at least in Germany) they get the short end of the stick. They generally have to enter into non-competes, prohibiting them from working for other agencies or companies. They are only paid when the temp agency actually has work for them. They generally get zero benefits compared to regular employees. They also tend to be paid pennies and don't benefit from labour agreements (because unlike their regular employee co-workers they're not allowed to unionize). Basically, they're like independent contractors, except they're not independent. Temp agencies in this form weren't even legal in Germany until a few years ago (well, about a decade now).
ptaipale 12y ago
This sounds a bit of a Luddite approach to me. Yeah, all those spinning Jennies make weavers unemployed.
- jjoonathan 12y ago
  Right, but if you blame the proximal cause of unemployment then you don't have to address the underlying social issues or ask hard questions about the legitimacy of a system that snatches defeat from the jaws of victory.
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    Good point. Spinning Jennies and Uber taxis work as scapegoats; often the mental change is the hardest.
    - sfk 12y ago
      What mental change? To accept boring non-innovations as something fundamental?
      - jjoonathan 12y ago
        No, to accept the possibility that we will need to institute economic policy that decreases the supply of unskilled labor without punishing the unskilled laborers for working below capacity. We've done it before and we'll do it again, but in a society that (correctly) sees hard work as a personal virtue and is controlled by people with a vested interest in conflating the personal virtue with the societal virtue of promoting hard work, there's a fight every time the policies need tweaking.
- onion2k 12y ago
  If that's the analogy you're going to use, it's probably worth remembering that the new jobs mechanisation created in the industrial revolution were in horrible conditions where the people using the new technologies died young after being worked to death putting in long hours for minimal wages.
jonathanza 12y ago
I live in a country with 25% unemployment, South Africa. I've used Uber a few times in the last week or so and my drivers have been: - A high-school dropout studying towards his Matric and wanting to go into engineering. - An owner of a backpacker lodge looking to do something during the day when his business isn't busy. - A retired person looking to earn some extra income. - A full time Uber driver who was a long-haul truck driver. IMHO, my country needs more nerds churning out code which will cut through the bureaucracy our government has put in place and create opportunities for our unemployed. With regards to self-driving cars, that would be awesome. I just don't see that it's something that would be affordable in a developing country in the next few years.
tobltobs 12y ago
It is more that govt doesn't like if companies try to avoid social insurances for their workers.
chappi42 12y ago
More like germany doesn't want drivers without proper papers and sloppy serviced cars. Taxis work quite well here with reasonable fares. No need for uber which exploits their employees... well they are not employees but exploitable individuals with very little power. It's good that the government cares for a certain standard. Of course there are regions where this degenerated i to bad burocratie
- ShellfishMeme 12y ago
  Reasonable? For the price it costs to get from Berlin's city center to the airport, you could easily drive your own car to Hamburg - and probably back. I really don't understand why it has to be so expensive. For inner city trips the gas costs are a negligible part of the total price, and most drivers are being paid minimum wage. (I've actually heard quite a few taxi drivers complain about minimum wage being introduced because their employers claim that it's too expensive for them and they need to cut costs.) Either there are too many taxis out there so they need higher prices to be able to pay for the time where they just stand around waiting for customers, or somebody is getting rich.
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    In my experience the taxis in Berlin are not that expensive. 15 euros from Tegel to Schöneberg. That doesn't really get you enough gas to get to Hamburg, let alone compensate any other cost of vehicle. Now, just don't get me started about the prices of regulated taxes in Helsinki, or the largely unregulated taxis in Stockholm, where you really have to be careful.
- purringmeow 12y ago
  How does Uber exploit its employees? Nobody is making drivers sign-up for Uber. Nobody is keeping them signed-up by force. The whole problem with Uber can be solved if governments deregulate the taxi industry. I absolutely agree that you need an insurance that covers the passengers, but what else except more frequent technical checks? Taxi licenses are an artificial way to control the supply, so I am adamantly against them.
reasonish 12y ago
Don't be ridiculous. Uber isn't cheaper because of code. It's cheaper because they ignore the laws and regulations. Just like airBnB. Code has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Stuff like this is going to be more and more common as govt doesn't want 25+ % of their population to be unemployed due to nerds churning out code.

andrewpi 12y ago

Any evidence that Uber leads to more unemployment rather than less unemployment?

michaelbuckbee 12y ago
Uber have stated that they are developing self driving cars http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/03/technology/innovationnation/uber-self-driving-cars/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/03/technology/innovationnation/...
- ptaipale 12y ago
  Wouldn't it then be more sensible to ban Google from doing business? If it is bad to develop new technology that utilizes resources (people, material, energy) more efficiently.
  - cssmoo 12y ago
    Isn't that called Marxism?
    - TeMPOraL 12y ago
      You mean utilizing resources in a more efficient manner? I think it could be called that.
pluma 12y ago
Calling Uber drivers "employed" is no different from calling temp agency workers "employed". It's not a solution to unemployment, it's an exploitation of people unable to find a job in societies where not having a job means living in poverty. They're not entrepreneurs either. They're workers who have the liberty of employees with the legal requirements of entrepreneurs. It's the worst of both worlds.
- andrewpi 12y ago
  Temp agency workers are generally considered employed. Government statistics include temp workers as well.
  - pluma 12y ago
    Sure, except (at least in Germany) they get the short end of the stick. They generally have to enter into non-competes, prohibiting them from working for other agencies or companies. They are only paid when the temp agency actually has work for them. They generally get zero benefits compared to regular employees. They also tend to be paid pennies and don't benefit from labour agreements (because unlike their regular employee co-workers they're not allowed to unionize). Basically, they're like independent contractors, except they're not independent. Temp agencies in this form weren't even legal in Germany until a few years ago (well, about a decade now).

ptaipale 12y ago

This sounds a bit of a Luddite approach to me. Yeah, all those spinning Jennies make weavers unemployed.

jjoonathan 12y ago
Right, but if you blame the proximal cause of unemployment then you don't have to address the underlying social issues or ask hard questions about the legitimacy of a system that snatches defeat from the jaws of victory.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  Good point. Spinning Jennies and Uber taxis work as scapegoats; often the mental change is the hardest.
  - sfk 12y ago
    What mental change? To accept boring non-innovations as something fundamental?
    - jjoonathan 12y ago
      No, to accept the possibility that we will need to institute economic policy that decreases the supply of unskilled labor without punishing the unskilled laborers for working below capacity. We've done it before and we'll do it again, but in a society that (correctly) sees hard work as a personal virtue and is controlled by people with a vested interest in conflating the personal virtue with the societal virtue of promoting hard work, there's a fight every time the policies need tweaking.
onion2k 12y ago
If that's the analogy you're going to use, it's probably worth remembering that the new jobs mechanisation created in the industrial revolution were in horrible conditions where the people using the new technologies died young after being worked to death putting in long hours for minimal wages.

jonathanza 12y ago

I live in a country with 25% unemployment, South Africa. I've used Uber a few times in the last week or so and my drivers have been: - A high-school dropout studying towards his Matric and wanting to go into engineering. - An owner of a backpacker lodge looking to do something during the day when his business isn't busy. - A retired person looking to earn some extra income. - A full time Uber driver who was a long-haul truck driver. IMHO, my country needs more nerds churning out code which will cut through the bureaucracy our government has put in place and create opportunities for our unemployed. With regards to self-driving cars, that would be awesome. I just don't see that it's something that would be affordable in a developing country in the next few years.

tobltobs 12y ago

It is more that govt doesn't like if companies try to avoid social insurances for their workers.

chappi42 12y ago

More like germany doesn't want drivers without proper papers and sloppy serviced cars. Taxis work quite well here with reasonable fares. No need for uber which exploits their employees... well they are not employees but exploitable individuals with very little power. It's good that the government cares for a certain standard. Of course there are regions where this degenerated i to bad burocratie

ShellfishMeme 12y ago
Reasonable? For the price it costs to get from Berlin's city center to the airport, you could easily drive your own car to Hamburg - and probably back. I really don't understand why it has to be so expensive. For inner city trips the gas costs are a negligible part of the total price, and most drivers are being paid minimum wage. (I've actually heard quite a few taxi drivers complain about minimum wage being introduced because their employers claim that it's too expensive for them and they need to cut costs.) Either there are too many taxis out there so they need higher prices to be able to pay for the time where they just stand around waiting for customers, or somebody is getting rich.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  In my experience the taxis in Berlin are not that expensive. 15 euros from Tegel to Schöneberg. That doesn't really get you enough gas to get to Hamburg, let alone compensate any other cost of vehicle. Now, just don't get me started about the prices of regulated taxes in Helsinki, or the largely unregulated taxis in Stockholm, where you really have to be careful.
purringmeow 12y ago
How does Uber exploit its employees? Nobody is making drivers sign-up for Uber. Nobody is keeping them signed-up by force. The whole problem with Uber can be solved if governments deregulate the taxi industry. I absolutely agree that you need an insurance that covers the passengers, but what else except more frequent technical checks? Taxi licenses are an artificial way to control the supply, so I am adamantly against them.

reasonish 12y ago

Don't be ridiculous. Uber isn't cheaper because of code. It's cheaper because they ignore the laws and regulations. Just like airBnB. Code has absolutely nothing to do with it.