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> Often we tend to focus too much on intelligence and > too little on integrity. Maybe because integrity is virtually impossible to objectively evaluate for a

> Often we tend to focus too much on intelligence and > too little on integrity. Maybe because integrity is virtually impossible to objectively evaluate for a candidate who you've got limited time to assess (aside from some extreme examples perhaps). I guess you could incorporate some sort of formal integrity test [1] into your hiring process but my impression is that those are costly and controversial. Do companies actually use them...? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_integrity_testing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_integrity_testing

AndrewKemendo 12y ago
Maybe because integrity is virtually impossible to objectively evaluate for a candidate who you've got limited time to assess I would go even further and say that it's virtually impossible even over long periods. As a graduate from a military academy, the ostensible goal was graduating "Leaders of Character" with significant emphasis on "integrity" and "honor." I walked away feeling that the program did not perfect the evaluation. At the end of the day it's usually a "gut feel" as much as I hate that, and the perceptiveness of the screener really is pivotal.
foobarqux 12y ago
Integrity also means different things to Warren Buffett than it does to other people. Ripping someone's face off in a business transaction is a desirable quality to Warren Buffett.
- seunosewa 12y ago
  As long as you don't lie about what you're doing ...
- ethbro 12y ago
  > Integrity also means different things to Warren Buffett than it does to other people. Ripping someone's face off in a business transaction is a desirable quality to Warren Buffett. From the letter Gates was talking about (I've read about the 1st 1/3 of it over the last couple of days), integrity would be why Warren Buffett bought a major insurance company on a handshake and a one page document. No pre-audit. No financial review. He trusted the guy. In my opinion, that's the same definition of integrity everyone else uses.
  - foobarqux 12y ago
    I don't know which deal you are talking about but Buffett likes quick handshake deals because the longer he waits the more likely the seller will retain professional M&A advice and therefore raise the price (to something more fair for the seller). One of Buffett's proudest achievements was paying pennies on the dollar for an immigrant's bootstrapped furniture business.
    - ethbro 12y ago
      That would be National Indemnity and Life, p10. "Let’s look first at insurance, Berkshire’s core operation. That industry has been the engine that has propelled our expansion since 1967, when we acquired National Indemnity and its sister company, National Fire & Marine, for $8.6 million. Though that purchase had monumental consequences for Berkshire, its execution was simplicity itself. Jack Ringwalt, a friend of mine who was the controlling shareholder of the two companies, came to my office saying he would like to sell. Fifteen minutes later, we had a deal. Neither of Jack’s companies had ever had an audit by a public accounting firm, and I didn’t ask for one. My reasoning: (1) Jack was honest and (2) He was also a bit quirky and likely to walk away if the deal became at all complicated. On pages 128-129, we reproduce the 11⁄2-page purchase agreement we used to finalize the transaction. That contract was homemade: Neither side used a lawyer. Per page, this has to be Berkshire’s best deal: National Indemnity today has GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles) net worth of $111 billion, which exceeds that of any other insurer in the world."
dferlemann 12y ago
I agree. Integrity is mostly subjective. It has two meanings: 1. the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness. 2. the state of being whole and undivided. Some Christians would consider anti-homosexuality as a model for integrity, and how can you argue with that? They in fact are protecting integrity of the Bible. They are at least honest about it. When something is said, it needs to be put in correct context. What Warren Buffet was talking about probably meant loyalty, honesty, and consistent work ethnics and attitude. It should be clearly stated in order to have an objective measurement. Also, I find organizations putting Integrity as part of their motto distasteful. I don't know, maybe I just don't like any kind of mottos... These things are just generically "good." They don't mean shit when just posted on the wall. Might as well post something like "I'm good, trust me" or "don't be evil." I agree with Mitt Romney - corporations are people. He's right. Both are inherently hypocritical. Never trust what a person says, even yourself, do good and be good. Actions speak the loudest. Seriously, fuck those posters! I hate them so much.
- TheRealDunkirk 12y ago
  > Also, I find organizations putting Integrity as part of their motto distasteful. If you have to officially state that integrity is something you value, you've already lost. That it was part of a scummy company's "values statement," after they "merged" with my great company -- selling the deal to shareholders on a CEO deal they broke after a year, and then breaking up the company and selling it all off to float their drowning businesses -- was PARTICULARLY galling.
  - lomnakkus 12y ago
    Exactly. It's like explictly stating that you're "a people person". There mere act of saying it indicates that you're probably not[1]. [1] Unless you're unbelievably naïve, I suppose, but I don't want unbelievably naïve people working for/with me.
NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
An integrity test works exactly once. The first time you do it, you can see the candidate for who he is. Pass, fail... you've measured it. Then, other candidates learn of the integrity test. And they try to game it. They see you drop the wallet, they make a point of giving it back regardless of what their true impulse might be. So I don't think you can effectively test for these things, unless you hire so rarely that word never really spreads. Haha! Got a chuckle out of the Wikipedia link. Sounds like pseudo-science (obviously if he answers that his favorite color is red and not blue he's some sort of shifty klepto!).

AndrewKemendo 12y ago

Maybe because integrity is virtually impossible to objectively evaluate for a candidate who you've got limited time to assess I would go even further and say that it's virtually impossible even over long periods. As a graduate from a military academy, the ostensible goal was graduating "Leaders of Character" with significant emphasis on "integrity" and "honor." I walked away feeling that the program did not perfect the evaluation. At the end of the day it's usually a "gut feel" as much as I hate that, and the perceptiveness of the screener really is pivotal.

foobarqux 12y ago

Integrity also means different things to Warren Buffett than it does to other people. Ripping someone's face off in a business transaction is a desirable quality to Warren Buffett.

seunosewa 12y ago
As long as you don't lie about what you're doing ...
ethbro 12y ago
> Integrity also means different things to Warren Buffett than it does to other people. Ripping someone's face off in a business transaction is a desirable quality to Warren Buffett. From the letter Gates was talking about (I've read about the 1st 1/3 of it over the last couple of days), integrity would be why Warren Buffett bought a major insurance company on a handshake and a one page document. No pre-audit. No financial review. He trusted the guy. In my opinion, that's the same definition of integrity everyone else uses.
- foobarqux 12y ago
  I don't know which deal you are talking about but Buffett likes quick handshake deals because the longer he waits the more likely the seller will retain professional M&A advice and therefore raise the price (to something more fair for the seller). One of Buffett's proudest achievements was paying pennies on the dollar for an immigrant's bootstrapped furniture business.
  - ethbro 12y ago
    That would be National Indemnity and Life, p10. "Let’s look first at insurance, Berkshire’s core operation. That industry has been the engine that has propelled our expansion since 1967, when we acquired National Indemnity and its sister company, National Fire & Marine, for $8.6 million. Though that purchase had monumental consequences for Berkshire, its execution was simplicity itself. Jack Ringwalt, a friend of mine who was the controlling shareholder of the two companies, came to my office saying he would like to sell. Fifteen minutes later, we had a deal. Neither of Jack’s companies had ever had an audit by a public accounting firm, and I didn’t ask for one. My reasoning: (1) Jack was honest and (2) He was also a bit quirky and likely to walk away if the deal became at all complicated. On pages 128-129, we reproduce the 11⁄2-page purchase agreement we used to finalize the transaction. That contract was homemade: Neither side used a lawyer. Per page, this has to be Berkshire’s best deal: National Indemnity today has GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles) net worth of $111 billion, which exceeds that of any other insurer in the world."

dferlemann 12y ago

I agree. Integrity is mostly subjective. It has two meanings: 1. the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness. 2. the state of being whole and undivided. Some Christians would consider anti-homosexuality as a model for integrity, and how can you argue with that? They in fact are protecting integrity of the Bible. They are at least honest about it. When something is said, it needs to be put in correct context. What Warren Buffet was talking about probably meant loyalty, honesty, and consistent work ethnics and attitude. It should be clearly stated in order to have an objective measurement. Also, I find organizations putting Integrity as part of their motto distasteful. I don't know, maybe I just don't like any kind of mottos... These things are just generically "good." They don't mean shit when just posted on the wall. Might as well post something like "I'm good, trust me" or "don't be evil." I agree with Mitt Romney - corporations are people. He's right. Both are inherently hypocritical. Never trust what a person says, even yourself, do good and be good. Actions speak the loudest. Seriously, fuck those posters! I hate them so much.

TheRealDunkirk 12y ago
> Also, I find organizations putting Integrity as part of their motto distasteful. If you have to officially state that integrity is something you value, you've already lost. That it was part of a scummy company's "values statement," after they "merged" with my great company -- selling the deal to shareholders on a CEO deal they broke after a year, and then breaking up the company and selling it all off to float their drowning businesses -- was PARTICULARLY galling.
- lomnakkus 12y ago
  Exactly. It's like explictly stating that you're "a people person". There mere act of saying it indicates that you're probably not[1]. [1] Unless you're unbelievably naïve, I suppose, but I don't want unbelievably naïve people working for/with me.

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago

An integrity test works exactly once. The first time you do it, you can see the candidate for who he is. Pass, fail... you've measured it. Then, other candidates learn of the integrity test. And they try to game it. They see you drop the wallet, they make a point of giving it back regardless of what their true impulse might be. So I don't think you can effectively test for these things, unless you hire so rarely that word never really spreads. Haha! Got a chuckle out of the Wikipedia link. Sounds like pseudo-science (obviously if he answers that his favorite color is red and not blue he's some sort of shifty klepto!).