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What is useless about something that is beautiful? Many people purchase objects of beauty (just look at the art world!) which cost much more than a diamond!

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
But why is it beautiful? A CZ is indistinguishable from a diamond until you look at it with a microscope, yet maligned as an inferior piece of jewellery.
- gherthra 12y ago
  Because a CZ can be easily damaged, whereas the hardness of a diamond makes it very resilient to scratches, damage etc. Also, the beauty of a ring doesn't solely exist in the diamond, the setting is a thing of beauty - the piece of jewelery itself.
- Retric 12y ago
  There are a few quick tests that can quickly separate a CZ from a diamond. Exhale on a similar diamond and it clears up much faster because of diamonds high thermal conductivity. More importantly, CZ is far less though than diamonds so they don't keep their shape under abuse nearly as well. There cheap enough you could swap out the stone every year, but just keeping the same CZ in a ring does not work over a lifetime.
- erroneousfunk 12y ago
  High quality diamonds look grayer/silvery under bright light, whereas CZ produces rainbows. I own both, and it's easy to tell the difference if you're, say, outdoors in the summer, or under full-spectrum lighting. Moissanite is closer, but moissanite still has more of a "rainbow" look, and is often yellowish. If a friend of mine was showing off her engagement ring and it was refracting a little rainbow on her finger in the sun (like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/CZ_brilliant.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/CZ_brilli...) I obviously wouldn't say anything, but come on. Getting a CZ engagement ring is going to lead to an awkward situation at some point.
- marktangotango 12y ago
  >> A CZ is indistinguishable from a diamond until you look at it with a microscope Not true, cz has a visual 'fire'. Plus, most women can tell at a glance.
jerf 12y ago
The fact that you're paying radically more than any actual open market price that you could possibly access. If you paid $10,000 for something but could generally resell it for something like that value it wouldn't be a scam. But if you buy a $10,000 ring from a vendor and try to find a way to sell it for anything like that much, you will find you can not, and not only the usual "I can't recover the vendor guarantee and reputation premium" that you'll find if you try to sell things on Craigslist or something, but you'll find that you can't even come close. It might be tempting to get into philosophical discussions about "what is value, really?", but that would be the wrong direction to go here. I'm happy to take value as a highly subjective judgment, because that is indeed what it is. My point here is brutally practical, and, well, exactly what I said, and no more... the problem here is literally that you will find that what you've bought can't be resold for anything like what you bought it for, and where that truth comes from doesn't much matter when you're trying to resell. The art world is radically different. It is assumed that you are a smart consumer who is expected to defend themselves. And I'd also point out that if you spend a million dollars on something that turns out to be a really high quality forgery worth about $5K on the open market, we still call that a scam.
- gherthra 12y ago
  This is interesting, but I guess I'm wondering how it really differs to buying a brand new car. The moment you drive it outside the car dealer you've lost money. It would be interesting to compare the lost value of jewelry as a percentage to other items purchased brand new. The diamond I have was purchased at wholesale price and custom made into a setting - it wasn't some off the shelf piece from Tiffany's. I think that where you purchase the jewelery from can also make a significant difference to its resale value.
  - jerf 12y ago
    "This is interesting, but I guess I'm wondering how it really differs to buying a brand new car. The moment you drive it outside the car dealer you've lost money." A: Nowhere near as much, and B: That's what I was referring to with the "vendor guarantee"... the reason why your car loses its value when you drive it off the lot is obviously not that the car changes meaningfully, but that in the somewhat scammy world of used cars you will not be able to establish to anyone that your car really is brand new anymore, so you take a hit based on the fact that you do not have a reputation that says "I am $CAR Dealership XYZ and I stake my name on the fact this really is a brand new $CAR straight from the factory". (Incidentally, to some extent, note that when people suggest that the solution is to always buy used, they often aren't taking that into account properly in their zeal to make their point. You're paying less precisely because the odds of you being scammed just went up. If you are, for instance, someone very likely to be able to detect scams, by all means, go collect your "knowledge premium" from the market and buy used. But if you are not such a person, think twice. I don't mean "never do it"... I just mean, think twice. I have family that was taken for a ride by buying used when they "couldn't afford" new... well, it turns out they couldn't afford "scammy used" either....) Yes, that is one solution to the conundrum, buy at actual market value. In the longterm that's an unstable solution... if rings lose their signaling value entirely (see other comments), then the eventual stable solution is not to buy them at all. However, in the meantime, what the eventual stable solution 50 years from now will be isn't actionable today, so by all means buy something that impresses your friends and pocket the difference. My wife and I went a different route and bought a nice ring with two Tanzenite stones in it for, IIRC, on the order of $250 1999-dollars, and I still think it looks pretty nice. Tanzenite is a bit soft but we've had no problems, and I think it's beautiful but the jewelry community seems to think it isn't worth much. We were happy to come to arrangements with them on that matter. This is another way to hack the process, since people aren't consciously thinking all the way through this it can suffice to present a token similar to a "diamond ring" but that did not require the useless investment.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago

But why is it beautiful? A CZ is indistinguishable from a diamond until you look at it with a microscope, yet maligned as an inferior piece of jewellery.

gherthra 12y ago
Because a CZ can be easily damaged, whereas the hardness of a diamond makes it very resilient to scratches, damage etc. Also, the beauty of a ring doesn't solely exist in the diamond, the setting is a thing of beauty - the piece of jewelery itself.
Retric 12y ago
There are a few quick tests that can quickly separate a CZ from a diamond. Exhale on a similar diamond and it clears up much faster because of diamonds high thermal conductivity. More importantly, CZ is far less though than diamonds so they don't keep their shape under abuse nearly as well. There cheap enough you could swap out the stone every year, but just keeping the same CZ in a ring does not work over a lifetime.
erroneousfunk 12y ago
High quality diamonds look grayer/silvery under bright light, whereas CZ produces rainbows. I own both, and it's easy to tell the difference if you're, say, outdoors in the summer, or under full-spectrum lighting. Moissanite is closer, but moissanite still has more of a "rainbow" look, and is often yellowish. If a friend of mine was showing off her engagement ring and it was refracting a little rainbow on her finger in the sun (like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/CZ_brilliant.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/CZ_brilli...) I obviously wouldn't say anything, but come on. Getting a CZ engagement ring is going to lead to an awkward situation at some point.
marktangotango 12y ago
>> A CZ is indistinguishable from a diamond until you look at it with a microscope Not true, cz has a visual 'fire'. Plus, most women can tell at a glance.

jerf 12y ago

The fact that you're paying radically more than any actual open market price that you could possibly access. If you paid $10,000 for something but could generally resell it for something like that value it wouldn't be a scam. But if you buy a $10,000 ring from a vendor and try to find a way to sell it for anything like that much, you will find you can not, and not only the usual "I can't recover the vendor guarantee and reputation premium" that you'll find if you try to sell things on Craigslist or something, but you'll find that you can't even come close. It might be tempting to get into philosophical discussions about "what is value, really?", but that would be the wrong direction to go here. I'm happy to take value as a highly subjective judgment, because that is indeed what it is. My point here is brutally practical, and, well, exactly what I said, and no more... the problem here is literally that you will find that what you've bought can't be resold for anything like what you bought it for, and where that truth comes from doesn't much matter when you're trying to resell. The art world is radically different. It is assumed that you are a smart consumer who is expected to defend themselves. And I'd also point out that if you spend a million dollars on something that turns out to be a really high quality forgery worth about $5K on the open market, we still call that a scam.

gherthra 12y ago
This is interesting, but I guess I'm wondering how it really differs to buying a brand new car. The moment you drive it outside the car dealer you've lost money. It would be interesting to compare the lost value of jewelry as a percentage to other items purchased brand new. The diamond I have was purchased at wholesale price and custom made into a setting - it wasn't some off the shelf piece from Tiffany's. I think that where you purchase the jewelery from can also make a significant difference to its resale value.
- jerf 12y ago
  "This is interesting, but I guess I'm wondering how it really differs to buying a brand new car. The moment you drive it outside the car dealer you've lost money." A: Nowhere near as much, and B: That's what I was referring to with the "vendor guarantee"... the reason why your car loses its value when you drive it off the lot is obviously not that the car changes meaningfully, but that in the somewhat scammy world of used cars you will not be able to establish to anyone that your car really is brand new anymore, so you take a hit based on the fact that you do not have a reputation that says "I am $CAR Dealership XYZ and I stake my name on the fact this really is a brand new $CAR straight from the factory". (Incidentally, to some extent, note that when people suggest that the solution is to always buy used, they often aren't taking that into account properly in their zeal to make their point. You're paying less precisely because the odds of you being scammed just went up. If you are, for instance, someone very likely to be able to detect scams, by all means, go collect your "knowledge premium" from the market and buy used. But if you are not such a person, think twice. I don't mean "never do it"... I just mean, think twice. I have family that was taken for a ride by buying used when they "couldn't afford" new... well, it turns out they couldn't afford "scammy used" either....) Yes, that is one solution to the conundrum, buy at actual market value. In the longterm that's an unstable solution... if rings lose their signaling value entirely (see other comments), then the eventual stable solution is not to buy them at all. However, in the meantime, what the eventual stable solution 50 years from now will be isn't actionable today, so by all means buy something that impresses your friends and pocket the difference. My wife and I went a different route and bought a nice ring with two Tanzenite stones in it for, IIRC, on the order of $250 1999-dollars, and I still think it looks pretty nice. Tanzenite is a bit soft but we've had no problems, and I think it's beautiful but the jewelry community seems to think it isn't worth much. We were happy to come to arrangements with them on that matter. This is another way to hack the process, since people aren't consciously thinking all the way through this it can suffice to present a token similar to a "diamond ring" but that did not require the useless investment.