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This is the sort of reason I stopped buying Apple products. Whilst they use ground-breaking advanced engineering, thermal design and materials and all that mar

by cssmoo 12y ago

This is the sort of reason I stopped buying Apple products. Whilst they use ground-breaking advanced engineering, thermal design and materials and all that marketing garb, I feel merely like the pilot of an experimental aircraft about to tumble out of the sky at any moment. The last three Apple computers I bought ended up being returned on warranty and the replacement sold due to electrical, thermal, software and quality issues. Fortunately we're covered here in the UK for 6 years with a small argument but none of the machines lasted more than 12 months in normal "at home" usage. Now that's not exclusive to Apple but I don't expect to have these issues on a premium product. £183/month for a computer over its usable lifetime is a lot of money. On the side I fix Apple kit for people. I recently replaced the screen on a 2008 MBP which had failed. It was a joy to do. I can't help anyone with a Retina MBP onwards though; warranty return only. That's a big red flag for buying any recent kit. Second hand plastic ThinkPads now. Not had any problems for a couple of years and to replace the entire unit is less than a 2010 MBP screen and they're easy to replace bits in. #00 Philips and a swiss army knife and you're sorted.

nazgob 12y ago
Second hand plastic ThinkPads are hardly an alternative... They are seriously outdated now.
- cssmoo 12y ago
  Depends what you do with them. Mine is fine for what I do and is probably fine for 80% of people out there.
- Amezarak 12y ago
  > Second hand plastic ThinkPads are hardly an alternative... They are seriously outdated now. And how does that affect their day-to-day usability? I'm a big fan of new and shiny, but my primary laptop is a Dell Inspiron I bought in 2006/2007, because I'm also a big fan of using things until they break. I popped an SSD into it a couple years ago and it is very snappy and performs perfectly well as a development machine, web browser, and (small) VM host. In fact, it's actually snappier than my i7 desktop for most tasks because of the SSD. So why would a secondhand (and probably newer) ThinkPad not be a suitable alternative? The biggest downsides of having an older laptop are that the screen is a mere 1680x1050 and it's pretty thick, probably a around a full inch when closed. The former is still not terrible by today's standards (what's with the absurd popularity of 1366x768?), but I do consider it to fall into the bare minimum of acceptability, and the latter is simply not a problem for me - it's not enough weight to bother me on my daily 1.2 mile walk into work and most of the time it's sitting on a desk or on my lap, not anywhere space-constrained.
jackweirdy 12y ago
> Fortunately we're covered here in the UK for 6 years with a small argument There’s no shortage of consumer protection return periods, it seems - I’ve not heard 6 years before, where is that decided?
- cichli 12y ago
  It's decided in the Sale of Goods Act (1979), see http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn02239.pdf http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn02239.pdf This is also described on Apple's website at http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/
  - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
    A lot of retailers will argue about this. But the law is the law. If you threaten civil action they'll either acquiesce before the case gets to court, or be forced to acquiesce after it gets to court, because there's no defence.
    - duncanawoods 12y ago
      I have had 3 warranty replacements from Apple at around 18 mo. point and the way they handle it disgusts me: They show you a receipt that states the full price replacement and make you sign it and say I must pay. I say no, its within the warranty period. Twice they have then said "unfortunately you did not buy it from Apple so they cannot perform a retailer's replacement" but in both cases I had (from their website). Once they then said "did you buy from Apple business?" I accidentally said yes and they tried to use that to extract payment. In each case, once you have the dodged the bullets, the genius finally says a prepared statement along the lines of "it is out of warranty so it will cost £xxx but because <insert excuse> we will waive the charges this time". The <insert excuse> is something like "safety reasons". It is just so damn deceitful. They are not "waiving charges" and they introduced multiple pressure points to unfairly obtain payment. What really happened was they were compelled to replace a 14 month old product they borked with a software update. I have no idea what the thing with size 6 pt. text and full price listed was that they make me sign. I have to assume they train and incentivise Apple Shop staff to trick you into paying for replacements. Scumbags.
UnoriginalGuy 12y ago
> Whilst they use ground-breaking [..] thermal design Apple has had an overheating problem for the last two to three generations. They used to design the MBP at least to be a mobile workhorse so heat was more important than sleekness, but then their designers got ahold of it and now it is an overheating mess. Plus the discoloring this thread is talking about is likely due to WHERE Apple hid the vent (i.e. within the screen latch, so it is "invisible," but jets hot air up the front of the LCD constantly causing the glue to fail per the OP). I've owned recent gen MBP, Surface Pro 3, Thinkpad, and few others. The MBP gets hottest followed by the Surface Pro 3 and then the Thinkpad. Actually my Asus ROG laptop stays coolest (like cold to the touch) but it also weighs incredible amounts.
paulornothing 12y ago
I guess everyone just has varying experiences with different companies, plus you certainly will hear bad experiences more than good experiences. Myself I have had nothing but great experiences with Apple products, most I have bought new some used. We still have an Apple IIci that works great. I've owned a blue iMac from 2000 which has never had hardware issue and my dad still uses it for iTunes and playing Cds. Also have a 17" iMac G4 from around 2002 that only had a logic board issue but that was under warranty. Still kind of my favorite designed iMac. I guess I would be curious to see what the fail rates are on Apple products (highly doubt they are truly available). For me they are the only company I've always had a good experience with their products and customer service and I feel like I'm pretty jaded with customer service after working in Retail for over 10 years (sporting goods and then electronics).
Stratoscope 12y ago
> #00 Philips and a swiss army knife and you're sorted. ThinkPads use #1 JIS Phillips screws almost everywhere, with some #0 JIS apparently used for internal parts. (I haven't encountered any #0 myself, just #1.) #00 is definitely too small. You may be able to get away with it, but it's much easier and less likely to damage the screw heads if you use the right size driver. The "JIS" is Japanese Industrial Standard, a slight variation from ordinary Phillips. Wiha screwdrivers are my favorite; I use a #1 Wiha for all my ThinkPad work. Here's a discussion: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/screwdriver-kit.509315/ http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/screwdriver-kit.5093...
- cssmoo 12y ago
  You're right but I'm a software guy so you should never let me at hardware :)

by cssmoo 12y ago

nazgob 12y ago

Second hand plastic ThinkPads are hardly an alternative... They are seriously outdated now.

cssmoo 12y ago
Depends what you do with them. Mine is fine for what I do and is probably fine for 80% of people out there.
Amezarak 12y ago
> Second hand plastic ThinkPads are hardly an alternative... They are seriously outdated now. And how does that affect their day-to-day usability? I'm a big fan of new and shiny, but my primary laptop is a Dell Inspiron I bought in 2006/2007, because I'm also a big fan of using things until they break. I popped an SSD into it a couple years ago and it is very snappy and performs perfectly well as a development machine, web browser, and (small) VM host. In fact, it's actually snappier than my i7 desktop for most tasks because of the SSD. So why would a secondhand (and probably newer) ThinkPad not be a suitable alternative? The biggest downsides of having an older laptop are that the screen is a mere 1680x1050 and it's pretty thick, probably a around a full inch when closed. The former is still not terrible by today's standards (what's with the absurd popularity of 1366x768?), but I do consider it to fall into the bare minimum of acceptability, and the latter is simply not a problem for me - it's not enough weight to bother me on my daily 1.2 mile walk into work and most of the time it's sitting on a desk or on my lap, not anywhere space-constrained.

jackweirdy 12y ago

> Fortunately we're covered here in the UK for 6 years with a small argument There’s no shortage of consumer protection return periods, it seems - I’ve not heard 6 years before, where is that decided?

cichli 12y ago
It's decided in the Sale of Goods Act (1979), see http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn02239.pdf http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn02239.pdf This is also described on Apple's website at http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/
- TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
  A lot of retailers will argue about this. But the law is the law. If you threaten civil action they'll either acquiesce before the case gets to court, or be forced to acquiesce after it gets to court, because there's no defence.
  - duncanawoods 12y ago
    I have had 3 warranty replacements from Apple at around 18 mo. point and the way they handle it disgusts me: They show you a receipt that states the full price replacement and make you sign it and say I must pay. I say no, its within the warranty period. Twice they have then said "unfortunately you did not buy it from Apple so they cannot perform a retailer's replacement" but in both cases I had (from their website). Once they then said "did you buy from Apple business?" I accidentally said yes and they tried to use that to extract payment. In each case, once you have the dodged the bullets, the genius finally says a prepared statement along the lines of "it is out of warranty so it will cost £xxx but because <insert excuse> we will waive the charges this time". The <insert excuse> is something like "safety reasons". It is just so damn deceitful. They are not "waiving charges" and they introduced multiple pressure points to unfairly obtain payment. What really happened was they were compelled to replace a 14 month old product they borked with a software update. I have no idea what the thing with size 6 pt. text and full price listed was that they make me sign. I have to assume they train and incentivise Apple Shop staff to trick you into paying for replacements. Scumbags.

UnoriginalGuy 12y ago

> Whilst they use ground-breaking [..] thermal design Apple has had an overheating problem for the last two to three generations. They used to design the MBP at least to be a mobile workhorse so heat was more important than sleekness, but then their designers got ahold of it and now it is an overheating mess. Plus the discoloring this thread is talking about is likely due to WHERE Apple hid the vent (i.e. within the screen latch, so it is "invisible," but jets hot air up the front of the LCD constantly causing the glue to fail per the OP). I've owned recent gen MBP, Surface Pro 3, Thinkpad, and few others. The MBP gets hottest followed by the Surface Pro 3 and then the Thinkpad. Actually my Asus ROG laptop stays coolest (like cold to the touch) but it also weighs incredible amounts.

paulornothing 12y ago

I guess everyone just has varying experiences with different companies, plus you certainly will hear bad experiences more than good experiences. Myself I have had nothing but great experiences with Apple products, most I have bought new some used. We still have an Apple IIci that works great. I've owned a blue iMac from 2000 which has never had hardware issue and my dad still uses it for iTunes and playing Cds. Also have a 17" iMac G4 from around 2002 that only had a logic board issue but that was under warranty. Still kind of my favorite designed iMac. I guess I would be curious to see what the fail rates are on Apple products (highly doubt they are truly available). For me they are the only company I've always had a good experience with their products and customer service and I feel like I'm pretty jaded with customer service after working in Retail for over 10 years (sporting goods and then electronics).

Stratoscope 12y ago

> #00 Philips and a swiss army knife and you're sorted. ThinkPads use #1 JIS Phillips screws almost everywhere, with some #0 JIS apparently used for internal parts. (I haven't encountered any #0 myself, just #1.) #00 is definitely too small. You may be able to get away with it, but it's much easier and less likely to damage the screw heads if you use the right size driver. The "JIS" is Japanese Industrial Standard, a slight variation from ordinary Phillips. Wiha screwdrivers are my favorite; I use a #1 Wiha for all my ThinkPad work. Here's a discussion: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/screwdriver-kit.509315/ http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/screwdriver-kit.5093...

cssmoo 12y ago
You're right but I'm a software guy so you should never let me at hardware :)