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Note these are the same people who sell you your diamond engagement ring. Every woman who insists on a ring like this is starting your marriage on a lie. I got

by sukilot 12y ago

Note these are the same people who sell you your diamond engagement ring. Every woman who insists on a ring like this is starting your marriage on a lie. I got dragged into a store like this and paid thousands of dollars to a racist asshole who told me how much smarter we were than those Christianss who come in to buy jewelry for Christmas. I'll probably never really forgive my wife for doing that (but she is wonderful in so many way, just a victim of that propaganda like so many others), and God help me if my daughter doesn't know better by the time she grows up.

bronson 12y ago
It's not entirely her fault. First thing all her friends want to do when they hear the great news is see the ring. It's a sickness in our society.
- therealwill 12y ago
  I'd rather buy her a car, even if it is 2x, 3x more expensive than a ring. At least it has some utility and it definitely has a wow factor to impress her friends with.
  - monochromatic 12y ago
    But diamonds are forever! /s
  - GhotiFish 12y ago
    That's actually pretty clever. "Look honey, you could stand on tradition and insist on an overly ostentatious ring... or I can get you a Lexus. Up to you!" "Oh that ring's lovely, did you see my wedding gift? It's parked just outside."
    - chrissyb 12y ago
      The diamond still sparkles though, even after a car wreck.
      - geon 12y ago
        Implying something about women and driving? Shame on you.
      - tomp 12y ago
        The car can still get you home, even after you're robbed and your diamond ring is stolen.
    - seunosewa 12y ago
      Watch out for the maintenance cost of the Lexus though ...
  - r00fus 12y ago
    The expected lifecycle for a ring can span generations (or used to, at least). A car will last you a decade and you'll be eyeing others in half that time. If this kind of gift is made to be symbolic of your relationship, then a car (or any other heavily depreciating asset) isn't the best symbol. One of my friends got an olive tree for her 25th wedding anniversary. I thought that was a great gift.
    - brazzy 12y ago
      The expected lifecycle of an engagement ring is one engagement. Getting her something "used" would be even worse than something "fake". And diamonds are a heavily depreciating asset. A car loses about 10% of its value the second you sign the purchase contract. With a diamond ring, it's more like 60%.
aaa667 12y ago
Just like the gold Apple iPhone, or other luxury items, those who can afford such things will create the market for it. I don't see how diamonds are any different to other luxury goods. Let those who can afford it buy it, I'm sure it gives pleasure to many people. It's also a status symbol - just like cars, luxury watches, handbags etc.
JimboOmega 12y ago
So I bought such a ring for my ex-fiancee, and have been halfheartedly trying to sell it for... a year? two? I understand I got ripped off at the point of sale (that's just how it works), but as per this article, I could very easily get ripped off selling it back. Unfortunately I really have no idea how to get rid of it and get a reasonable value for it - or what that value is.
- avn2109 12y ago
  Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the market value is ~0 when compared to what you paid for it.
- wicker 12y ago
  I've heard (but don't have first-hand experience so I can't verify) that selling it on commission via a local store might be worth looking into.
- mritun 12y ago
  Keep it. You're likely to sell it for quite a loss. If you think you're likely to find a partner again, you'll be in for buying one again. Diamonds are /forever/ (:P), keep and reuse it.
  - j_lev 12y ago
    I'd argue that the lesson here is to choose the girl who doesn't need the engagement ring.
  - pimlottc 12y ago
    Don't you think it might be a bit awkward when your new partner learns where it came from?
    - GotAnyMegadeth 12y ago
      I was once present for a very awkward conversation where a husband told us that his wife's ring was second hand in front of her and she was shocked. He thought she knew him well enough to know that he'd never buy one first hand...
SteveGerencser 12y ago
There are a staggering number of honest jewelers and gold buyers out there. But stories about obviously crooked people are what makes everyone say "see, these guys are ALL crooks". Just because he did this in his brother's store and it is his only experience, doesn't mean that all places are like that. And yes, I spent a decade working in a high jewelry store. If anyone did anything like this they would have met the front door so fast they wouldn't even realize they had been fired until they were in the parking lot.
- bcg1 12y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out. I've bought and sold enough gold and silver to know that what you're saying is true. Also most of the customers I've seen are quite savvy, and know exactly what they're doing. Occasionally a frazzled soon-to-be-divorcee is in their ready to fire sell her ring, but not a majority from what I've seen. On the other hand I've been told "diamonds are forever" is an inside joke that means you better keep it forever because you'll never get back what you paid for it... is that true?
  - brohee 12y ago
    http://priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-bullshit http://priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-bullsh...
- nwatson 12y ago
  Kind of like how most in the U.S. actually pay all their taxes as required without cheating, but we all hear about those few that cheat and so assume we're the only ones playing fairly.
SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
My wife recently asked me "Why did we decide to get a diamond at all, when we both knew it was a scam?" And I didn't really have a good answer. It just seemed like the thing to do at the time. We were both involved in picking out the rings, too; it's not like I went out and bought them for her without her input. Thankfully I didn't spend a completely insane amount of money on the rings (not compared to what I was earning -- less than a couple weeks' wages -- which is still too much, really but not the crazy amount some people spend). But neither of us were really ready to step that far away from what was "expected" of us, I guess.
- lucaspiller 12y ago
  I had pretty much the same conversation, and also bought a ring that wasn't too expensive. I did feel a bit stupid for even spending that much once I saw AliExpress had a similar ring for $2: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/GH620-Italina-brand-Classic-design-1carat-6mm-simulated-diamond-wedding-rings-for-women-18K-Gold-Plated/1652943787.html http://www.aliexpress.com/item/GH620-Italina-brand-Classic-d... I actually ordered one to see what it's like: The band looks exactly the same (I'm guessing it's just plated or a alloy though) and the fake diamond looks more shiny and isn't as heavy as it should be.
  - SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
    Wow. $2. Wow. I thought a carat of CZ was more than $2. I guess the raw materials just don't cost that much. :)
    - gutnor 12y ago
      Wow indeed ! I had to dig some prices to see if that was indeed possible, especially with shipping. Made me realize the real value of $1 outside supermarket. So, a top branded (Swarowsky) quality for a 1 ct equivalent CZ will run for $2, unbranded (AAAAA) for $1 and that's when you buy them by the unit. Good quality (AAA) one bought wholesale will not go over 0.30$. That's still for good quality, if you cut down on quality price can drop much further (try ebay-ing). Note that AAA quality is what I buy for my coloured stones and they are IMO magnificent. The material of the ring is silver plate, so that is basically worth nothing. Even if it was solid silver you would not have 1$ worth there, so $0.10 is probably generous. 2$ is probably 500% margin -at least- on the raw material (wow!) - I would not be surprised they didn't make 100% with manufacturing and shipping included. Impressive times to be alive. reference: * where I buy my CZ, not the cheapest: http://www.diamondcz.co.uk/ http://www.diamondcz.co.uk/ * http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html * some experience making jewellery * the reason it is a hobby and not a job: jewellery price on Camden Market (edit: formatting)
paul00 12y ago
First Post. I'm just curious how you guys think about a ring made of gold or silver. I remember my parents didn't buy a diamond ring. I know you need to be careful when buying gold and silver too and always have a look at the spot price, but a gold ring would have some resell value right? Another reason not to support the diamond business is how blood diamonds are mined.
- bcg1 12y ago
  I sold a 14k gold engagement ring once and the jeweler didn't care about the diamonds at all, and only was interested in the melt value of the gold. I still have the diamonds because he was literally going to give $0 for them. Unless they are quite large or a rare color etc, I don't think they have much resale value. At a reputable jeweler however you should be able to get 80% or more of the spot price. The history of diamonds is quite interesting actually: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/304575/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you... tl;dr don't buy jewelry as an investment, unless you own a jewelry store
- gutnor 12y ago
  The markup on a regular piece of gold jewellery is 300 to 500% depending on the brand. Much more if the piece is complex and handmade or very small. That does not make sense to buy it as an investment. 300% is not unusual for a product when you consider everything between the raw material and the finished piece in a shop. For example, even for handmade piece, the jeweller will not start from raw gold, but from sheet or wire. The markup on those, out of the refinery is already 20 to 50% and he has not even started yet. Jewellery has as much use as any other decorative item, buy them as such. You like the craft involved in making it, go to an artist a see him working days on your commissioned( * ) piece for an insane amount of money. You don't care about the craft, just like the look - go for the cheapest possible that look good ( base metal plated, synthetic stones, machine made, ... ) Avoid anything in between IMO, to much of the value there comes from decades of marketing campaigns. If you like them anyway, go to auction ( not ebay, too expensive ) or second hand. ( * ) note that picking a stone and choosing a mount is not a commissioned piece - the jeweler will probably spend less than 1 hour working on your ring, half of that polishing it. It means going to an artist and picking a custom one of a kind design, with the majority of the work done by hand. i.e. Same difference between buying a limited print of a famous painting or go to a painter to have your family painted. Despite being the same price, only one is making an actual artist live.
Kliment 12y ago
A friend of mine does jewelry courses in the Amsterdam area and has special courses for couples to make rings for each other. It's an order of magnitude cheaper than supporting the diamond industry, and much more personal and fun. His website is at http://sawugo.nl/ http://sawugo.nl/ if anyone is interested.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- hobarrera 12y ago
  I though the "diamond ring" this was a US-only business, but since you mentioned Amsterdam I'm not curious. Is it a thing in the Netherlands as well?
jlebar 12y ago
Obligatory plug for titanium / non-precious rings. My Ti band was $20 on Amazon, and on the other side of the spectrum, my wife had a beautiful Ti ring, including a tension-set lab-grown sapphire, milled to her specifications for < $500. But not conforming in this small yet significant way takes a certain kind of person.
- robin_reala 12y ago
  The only problem with Ti rings is that if you run into an accident where the ring needs to be cut off it’s almost impossible for standard hospital equipment to do it.
  - mcmancini 12y ago
    It's true that Ti rings are harder to cut, but the equipment to cut them is standard in American ERs. It still takes longer though. Even worse are the newer cobalt chrome rings, those take forever to cut off even with the right equipment. Safest of the alternative materials is probably the tungsten carbide or ceramic rings, since those can be fractured off with a pair of common vice grips. Don't know what happens when you're traveling in an area with a less developed medical system. If you aren't at risk for anaphylactic swelling, don't work with your hands, and don't travel in undeveloped areas, the risk of this sort of situation might be low enough to not worry too much about. A more practical problem with alternative materials is that they can't be resized (some jewelers will resize Ti a little, but it's challenging). The alternative materials are cheap enough that you can buy a replacement that's the right size, but if you're sentimental (and a wedding band seems like something one might be sentimental about) it's a problem. There's nothing wrong with alternative materials, it's just that sometimes the drawbacks are overlooked while being dazzled by the advantages.
  - gregpilling 12y ago
    The equipment is not expensive for hospitals, under $500 for everything. Most have tools like these to take off rings of all sorts of materials. Many Ambulances even carry them now. Cutting Stainless, Titanium rings: http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/electric-ring-cutter.htm http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/electric-ring-cutter.htm Cracking Tungsten rings : http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/tungsten_finger_ring_removal_tool.htm http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/tungsten_finger_ring_removal_... UCSF Fresno PDF on "Emergency Hard Metal Ring Removal" http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/snowdenposter2010.pdf http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/snowdenposter2010.pdf
facepalm 12y ago
I don't think it's complete nonsense - buying something useless and expensive is a very strong signal (like the peacocks tail). Buying something useful for the money instead is not the same thing at all. So while the diamond thing was created through advertising, it persists because it has a real function. Maybe it could be replaced by something else, but that would probably be something just as useless to demonstrate commitment. Still, if you can get by without the investment, good for you.
- dietrichepp 12y ago
  > ...buying something useless and expensive is a very strong signal... I see this comment every time engagement rings come up on Hacker News. Yes, it's a strong signal. But we're a bit smarter than that, and we can select mates who are smarter than that too. Perhaps this kind of peacocking will die out. Perhaps nature will select for mates who are level-headed enough to look at salary figures rather than shiny rocks. There are going to be a lot of people who realize that a down payment on a house or money in the bank will make their relationship more successful than a shiny rock will. I'm willing to bet on those people living and reproducing.
  - facepalm 12y ago
    Down payments and savings don't prove commitment. The point of signalling is to prove things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory If you change your spouse, your savings account remains the same. The ring you paid for is gone.
    - dietrichepp 12y ago
      Right... but humans have a much richer way of signaling than most animals. My point is that some humans will find ways to signal commitment without sinking three months of their salary into a worthless rock. Signalling theory is an explanation for observed behavior, not a guarantee that such behavior will persist if the organisms in question develop alternative strategies. I like to think humans are pretty good at developing alternative strategies. Besides, if you get divorced, you don't get your down payment back anyway.
furyg3 12y ago
I had a similar beliefs about diamonds and wasn't really sure how to talk about this to my (then) girlfriend. She's very progressive and would not interpret what I was saying as being a cheapskate (I'm the spendy one), but it seemed like the whole 'actual' value / marketing / cartel / theoretical human rights angles were all very rationally convincing, but pale in comparison to the cultural significance and century of visceral marketing. To compete on an emotional level it would mean watching blood diamond movies and/or being exposed to diamond industry scumbags for long periods of time. Not really how I wanted to start discussing a 'symbol of our love', and I didn't really want to be that guy. So I just stated that I wanted any future theoretical ring to have real significance, not just a purchase. I preferred there to be some history behind it. This opened a door to rework a family heirloom (with a great story) into an engagement ring. It happened to be a diamond, but this process was so much better than diamond shopping that I'm pretty sure if it had been a sapphire it would have done the trick.
- SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
  She was already on board with the "no blood diamonds" angle. We ended up with a "Hearts on Fire"[1] diamond, which claimed at least to have a paper trail proving that it did not come from a war zone. It also had the advantage of a shallower cut that made it look larger than a normal cut on a stone of that carat weight, which also reduced the total cost. I do like your idea, though. It's a bit late to be useful for me, though. ;) [1] http://www.heartsonfire.com/ http://www.heartsonfire.com/
contergan 12y ago
Jesus, grow a spine. If you don't want to buy useless shit like diamonds, don't. And if your marriage is dependent on such nonsense it's probably not worth it, isn't it?
- arethuza 12y ago
  When my wife and I got married 25 years ago we were broke - I was studying for a PhD and she was about to go to law school - so no expensive rings for us. However, what she does is buy a new inexpensive ring every so often and designate that ring her engagement/wedding ring. Recently she bought a ring with quite a large stone and she has been deeply amused that everyone thinks it a real diamond when it probably cost less than £50.
  - toothbrush 12y ago
    Haha, never let this person go :)
- kylebrown 12y ago
  Haha, grow up. Useless to him !== useless to her. Marriage is dependent on compromise and negotiation, among other things. The world is chock-full of nonsense, and you will have to navigate it, whether you do so single or married. Good grief, I don't think I've ever seen so much bad dating advice in one place as the comments in this thread, lol.
  - logfromblammo 12y ago
    You have to navigate it. You don't have to surrender to it. Much of that nonsense persists solely because so few possess the fortitude to resist it. If your spouse insists upon a diamond, you may compromise, but also negotiate something of equal value to you. Perhaps, in exchange, you get sole authority to furnish and decorate the living room in any shared domicile, guaranteed. You could install an octopus tank. You could put footballs on doilies on cinder blocks. You could create your own Batcave, Starfleet bridge, or Vault-Tec bunker. You could cover the walls in deep-pile maroon shag carpet. You could install 31.1 surround sound, using 24K gold Monster cables insulated with albino alpaca wool braids. If the ring is a signal to your spouse's social circle that you are the best partner, so too is having all that embarrassing decor connected to the front door of the house, rather than hidden away in the basement. If you have any inkling that particular compromise may be stupid and selfish, and not useful at all to the marriage as a whole, don't ask for a diamond ring. A diamond is not forever. A 1:1-scale replica of the TARDIS in your living room is forever. If you burn a significant fraction of the family resources on a useless toy just for you, your spouse will be entirely justified in spending an equal amount on pointless toys just for them. And you can get a lot of pointless toys for the price of one ring--some of them will even yield a higher resale price. If you don't want your marriage to be stupid and wasteful, you have to set a higher standard right from the start.
gherthra 12y ago
I love my engagement ring, sure it's not practical and we'll never get the money back that was paid for it. Every time I look at it sparkling, I think about my husband, and I think about the rock itself, where it came from, how it was formed, how old it is, and it makes me really happy. We aren't short of money so the purchase of the ring wasn't a big deal - we would easily spend twice the amount of the ring's value on travel every year. The ring is diamond and platinum and it's very strong - I've smashed it against all sorts of things, gone canyoning, scuba diving, you name it, and the platinum is barely scratched. We plan to keep this ring in the family and pass it down through the generations. The sentimentality and 'family heirloom' qualities are also really appealing to us. I'd much prefer this ring than a rolex, or a gold Apple iPhone for that matter!
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- brohee 12y ago
  "I think about the rock itself, where it came from, how it was formed, how old it is, and it makes me really happy" While you're thinking, think about how it was mined and trafficked, and try to estimate the amount of blood it took to get it on your ring... It's maybe none, but you'll never know for sure... A Rolex at least is made by skilled and respected craftsmen, rough diamonds are often the product of war and slavery...
tormeh 12y ago
On throwing away money as signalling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhEpMJ3n_wU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhEpMJ3n_wU Really, watch it. Both hilarious and sad. And yeah, "wasting" is a real thing (but as far as I know only for drinks).
SuddsMcDuff 12y ago
Not sure if that's the best way to look at it. You bought your wife the ring as a token of your everlasting devotion to her - there's a certain poetic quality to that token being made of the hardest substance on Earth. You didn't buy the ring as an investment, I mean what are you going to do, take the ring back and sell it when the market is more favourable? Any profit you make will be quickly swallowed up by the divorce.

by sukilot 12y ago

bronson 12y ago

It's not entirely her fault. First thing all her friends want to do when they hear the great news is see the ring. It's a sickness in our society.

therealwill 12y ago
I'd rather buy her a car, even if it is 2x, 3x more expensive than a ring. At least it has some utility and it definitely has a wow factor to impress her friends with.
- monochromatic 12y ago
  But diamonds are forever! /s
- GhotiFish 12y ago
  That's actually pretty clever. "Look honey, you could stand on tradition and insist on an overly ostentatious ring... or I can get you a Lexus. Up to you!" "Oh that ring's lovely, did you see my wedding gift? It's parked just outside."
  - chrissyb 12y ago
    The diamond still sparkles though, even after a car wreck.
    - geon 12y ago
      Implying something about women and driving? Shame on you.
    - tomp 12y ago
      The car can still get you home, even after you're robbed and your diamond ring is stolen.
  - seunosewa 12y ago
    Watch out for the maintenance cost of the Lexus though ...
- r00fus 12y ago
  The expected lifecycle for a ring can span generations (or used to, at least). A car will last you a decade and you'll be eyeing others in half that time. If this kind of gift is made to be symbolic of your relationship, then a car (or any other heavily depreciating asset) isn't the best symbol. One of my friends got an olive tree for her 25th wedding anniversary. I thought that was a great gift.
  - brazzy 12y ago
    The expected lifecycle of an engagement ring is one engagement. Getting her something "used" would be even worse than something "fake". And diamonds are a heavily depreciating asset. A car loses about 10% of its value the second you sign the purchase contract. With a diamond ring, it's more like 60%.

aaa667 12y ago

Just like the gold Apple iPhone, or other luxury items, those who can afford such things will create the market for it. I don't see how diamonds are any different to other luxury goods. Let those who can afford it buy it, I'm sure it gives pleasure to many people. It's also a status symbol - just like cars, luxury watches, handbags etc.

JimboOmega 12y ago

So I bought such a ring for my ex-fiancee, and have been halfheartedly trying to sell it for... a year? two? I understand I got ripped off at the point of sale (that's just how it works), but as per this article, I could very easily get ripped off selling it back. Unfortunately I really have no idea how to get rid of it and get a reasonable value for it - or what that value is.

avn2109 12y ago
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the market value is ~0 when compared to what you paid for it.
wicker 12y ago
I've heard (but don't have first-hand experience so I can't verify) that selling it on commission via a local store might be worth looking into.
mritun 12y ago
Keep it. You're likely to sell it for quite a loss. If you think you're likely to find a partner again, you'll be in for buying one again. Diamonds are /forever/ (:P), keep and reuse it.
- j_lev 12y ago
  I'd argue that the lesson here is to choose the girl who doesn't need the engagement ring.
- pimlottc 12y ago
  Don't you think it might be a bit awkward when your new partner learns where it came from?
  - GotAnyMegadeth 12y ago
    I was once present for a very awkward conversation where a husband told us that his wife's ring was second hand in front of her and she was shocked. He thought she knew him well enough to know that he'd never buy one first hand...

SteveGerencser 12y ago

There are a staggering number of honest jewelers and gold buyers out there. But stories about obviously crooked people are what makes everyone say "see, these guys are ALL crooks". Just because he did this in his brother's store and it is his only experience, doesn't mean that all places are like that. And yes, I spent a decade working in a high jewelry store. If anyone did anything like this they would have met the front door so fast they wouldn't even realize they had been fired until they were in the parking lot.

bcg1 12y ago
Thanks for pointing that out. I've bought and sold enough gold and silver to know that what you're saying is true. Also most of the customers I've seen are quite savvy, and know exactly what they're doing. Occasionally a frazzled soon-to-be-divorcee is in their ready to fire sell her ring, but not a majority from what I've seen. On the other hand I've been told "diamonds are forever" is an inside joke that means you better keep it forever because you'll never get back what you paid for it... is that true?
- brohee 12y ago
  http://priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-bullshit http://priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-bullsh...
nwatson 12y ago
Kind of like how most in the U.S. actually pay all their taxes as required without cheating, but we all hear about those few that cheat and so assume we're the only ones playing fairly.

SomeCallMeTim 12y ago

My wife recently asked me "Why did we decide to get a diamond at all, when we both knew it was a scam?" And I didn't really have a good answer. It just seemed like the thing to do at the time. We were both involved in picking out the rings, too; it's not like I went out and bought them for her without her input. Thankfully I didn't spend a completely insane amount of money on the rings (not compared to what I was earning -- less than a couple weeks' wages -- which is still too much, really but not the crazy amount some people spend). But neither of us were really ready to step that far away from what was "expected" of us, I guess.

lucaspiller 12y ago
I had pretty much the same conversation, and also bought a ring that wasn't too expensive. I did feel a bit stupid for even spending that much once I saw AliExpress had a similar ring for $2: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/GH620-Italina-brand-Classic-design-1carat-6mm-simulated-diamond-wedding-rings-for-women-18K-Gold-Plated/1652943787.html http://www.aliexpress.com/item/GH620-Italina-brand-Classic-d... I actually ordered one to see what it's like: The band looks exactly the same (I'm guessing it's just plated or a alloy though) and the fake diamond looks more shiny and isn't as heavy as it should be.
- SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
  Wow. $2. Wow. I thought a carat of CZ was more than $2. I guess the raw materials just don't cost that much. :)
  - gutnor 12y ago
    Wow indeed ! I had to dig some prices to see if that was indeed possible, especially with shipping. Made me realize the real value of $1 outside supermarket. So, a top branded (Swarowsky) quality for a 1 ct equivalent CZ will run for $2, unbranded (AAAAA) for $1 and that's when you buy them by the unit. Good quality (AAA) one bought wholesale will not go over 0.30$. That's still for good quality, if you cut down on quality price can drop much further (try ebay-ing). Note that AAA quality is what I buy for my coloured stones and they are IMO magnificent. The material of the ring is silver plate, so that is basically worth nothing. Even if it was solid silver you would not have 1$ worth there, so $0.10 is probably generous. 2$ is probably 500% margin -at least- on the raw material (wow!) - I would not be surprised they didn't make 100% with manufacturing and shipping included. Impressive times to be alive. reference: * where I buy my CZ, not the cheapest: http://www.diamondcz.co.uk/ http://www.diamondcz.co.uk/ * http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html * some experience making jewellery * the reason it is a hobby and not a job: jewellery price on Camden Market (edit: formatting)

paul00 12y ago

First Post. I'm just curious how you guys think about a ring made of gold or silver. I remember my parents didn't buy a diamond ring. I know you need to be careful when buying gold and silver too and always have a look at the spot price, but a gold ring would have some resell value right? Another reason not to support the diamond business is how blood diamonds are mined.

bcg1 12y ago
I sold a 14k gold engagement ring once and the jeweler didn't care about the diamonds at all, and only was interested in the melt value of the gold. I still have the diamonds because he was literally going to give $0 for them. Unless they are quite large or a rare color etc, I don't think they have much resale value. At a reputable jeweler however you should be able to get 80% or more of the spot price. The history of diamonds is quite interesting actually: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/304575/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you... tl;dr don't buy jewelry as an investment, unless you own a jewelry store
gutnor 12y ago
The markup on a regular piece of gold jewellery is 300 to 500% depending on the brand. Much more if the piece is complex and handmade or very small. That does not make sense to buy it as an investment. 300% is not unusual for a product when you consider everything between the raw material and the finished piece in a shop. For example, even for handmade piece, the jeweller will not start from raw gold, but from sheet or wire. The markup on those, out of the refinery is already 20 to 50% and he has not even started yet. Jewellery has as much use as any other decorative item, buy them as such. You like the craft involved in making it, go to an artist a see him working days on your commissioned( * ) piece for an insane amount of money. You don't care about the craft, just like the look - go for the cheapest possible that look good ( base metal plated, synthetic stones, machine made, ... ) Avoid anything in between IMO, to much of the value there comes from decades of marketing campaigns. If you like them anyway, go to auction ( not ebay, too expensive ) or second hand. ( * ) note that picking a stone and choosing a mount is not a commissioned piece - the jeweler will probably spend less than 1 hour working on your ring, half of that polishing it. It means going to an artist and picking a custom one of a kind design, with the majority of the work done by hand. i.e. Same difference between buying a limited print of a famous painting or go to a painter to have your family painted. Despite being the same price, only one is making an actual artist live.

Kliment 12y ago

A friend of mine does jewelry courses in the Amsterdam area and has special courses for couples to make rings for each other. It's an order of magnitude cheaper than supporting the diamond industry, and much more personal and fun. His website is at http://sawugo.nl/ http://sawugo.nl/ if anyone is interested.

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hobarrera 12y ago
I though the "diamond ring" this was a US-only business, but since you mentioned Amsterdam I'm not curious. Is it a thing in the Netherlands as well?

jlebar 12y ago

Obligatory plug for titanium / non-precious rings. My Ti band was $20 on Amazon, and on the other side of the spectrum, my wife had a beautiful Ti ring, including a tension-set lab-grown sapphire, milled to her specifications for < $500. But not conforming in this small yet significant way takes a certain kind of person.

robin_reala 12y ago
The only problem with Ti rings is that if you run into an accident where the ring needs to be cut off it’s almost impossible for standard hospital equipment to do it.
- mcmancini 12y ago
  It's true that Ti rings are harder to cut, but the equipment to cut them is standard in American ERs. It still takes longer though. Even worse are the newer cobalt chrome rings, those take forever to cut off even with the right equipment. Safest of the alternative materials is probably the tungsten carbide or ceramic rings, since those can be fractured off with a pair of common vice grips. Don't know what happens when you're traveling in an area with a less developed medical system. If you aren't at risk for anaphylactic swelling, don't work with your hands, and don't travel in undeveloped areas, the risk of this sort of situation might be low enough to not worry too much about. A more practical problem with alternative materials is that they can't be resized (some jewelers will resize Ti a little, but it's challenging). The alternative materials are cheap enough that you can buy a replacement that's the right size, but if you're sentimental (and a wedding band seems like something one might be sentimental about) it's a problem. There's nothing wrong with alternative materials, it's just that sometimes the drawbacks are overlooked while being dazzled by the advantages.
- gregpilling 12y ago
  The equipment is not expensive for hospitals, under $500 for everything. Most have tools like these to take off rings of all sorts of materials. Many Ambulances even carry them now. Cutting Stainless, Titanium rings: http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/electric-ring-cutter.htm http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/electric-ring-cutter.htm Cracking Tungsten rings : http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/tungsten_finger_ring_removal_tool.htm http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/tungsten_finger_ring_removal_... UCSF Fresno PDF on "Emergency Hard Metal Ring Removal" http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/snowdenposter2010.pdf http://www.loupe-magnifier.com/snowdenposter2010.pdf

facepalm 12y ago

I don't think it's complete nonsense - buying something useless and expensive is a very strong signal (like the peacocks tail). Buying something useful for the money instead is not the same thing at all. So while the diamond thing was created through advertising, it persists because it has a real function. Maybe it could be replaced by something else, but that would probably be something just as useless to demonstrate commitment. Still, if you can get by without the investment, good for you.

dietrichepp 12y ago
> ...buying something useless and expensive is a very strong signal... I see this comment every time engagement rings come up on Hacker News. Yes, it's a strong signal. But we're a bit smarter than that, and we can select mates who are smarter than that too. Perhaps this kind of peacocking will die out. Perhaps nature will select for mates who are level-headed enough to look at salary figures rather than shiny rocks. There are going to be a lot of people who realize that a down payment on a house or money in the bank will make their relationship more successful than a shiny rock will. I'm willing to bet on those people living and reproducing.
- facepalm 12y ago
  Down payments and savings don't prove commitment. The point of signalling is to prove things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory If you change your spouse, your savings account remains the same. The ring you paid for is gone.
  - dietrichepp 12y ago
    Right... but humans have a much richer way of signaling than most animals. My point is that some humans will find ways to signal commitment without sinking three months of their salary into a worthless rock. Signalling theory is an explanation for observed behavior, not a guarantee that such behavior will persist if the organisms in question develop alternative strategies. I like to think humans are pretty good at developing alternative strategies. Besides, if you get divorced, you don't get your down payment back anyway.

furyg3 12y ago

I had a similar beliefs about diamonds and wasn't really sure how to talk about this to my (then) girlfriend. She's very progressive and would not interpret what I was saying as being a cheapskate (I'm the spendy one), but it seemed like the whole 'actual' value / marketing / cartel / theoretical human rights angles were all very rationally convincing, but pale in comparison to the cultural significance and century of visceral marketing. To compete on an emotional level it would mean watching blood diamond movies and/or being exposed to diamond industry scumbags for long periods of time. Not really how I wanted to start discussing a 'symbol of our love', and I didn't really want to be that guy. So I just stated that I wanted any future theoretical ring to have real significance, not just a purchase. I preferred there to be some history behind it. This opened a door to rework a family heirloom (with a great story) into an engagement ring. It happened to be a diamond, but this process was so much better than diamond shopping that I'm pretty sure if it had been a sapphire it would have done the trick.

SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
She was already on board with the "no blood diamonds" angle. We ended up with a "Hearts on Fire"[1] diamond, which claimed at least to have a paper trail proving that it did not come from a war zone. It also had the advantage of a shallower cut that made it look larger than a normal cut on a stone of that carat weight, which also reduced the total cost. I do like your idea, though. It's a bit late to be useful for me, though. ;) [1] http://www.heartsonfire.com/ http://www.heartsonfire.com/

contergan 12y ago

Jesus, grow a spine. If you don't want to buy useless shit like diamonds, don't. And if your marriage is dependent on such nonsense it's probably not worth it, isn't it?

arethuza 12y ago
When my wife and I got married 25 years ago we were broke - I was studying for a PhD and she was about to go to law school - so no expensive rings for us. However, what she does is buy a new inexpensive ring every so often and designate that ring her engagement/wedding ring. Recently she bought a ring with quite a large stone and she has been deeply amused that everyone thinks it a real diamond when it probably cost less than £50.
- toothbrush 12y ago
  Haha, never let this person go :)
kylebrown 12y ago
Haha, grow up. Useless to him !== useless to her. Marriage is dependent on compromise and negotiation, among other things. The world is chock-full of nonsense, and you will have to navigate it, whether you do so single or married. Good grief, I don't think I've ever seen so much bad dating advice in one place as the comments in this thread, lol.
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  You have to navigate it. You don't have to surrender to it. Much of that nonsense persists solely because so few possess the fortitude to resist it. If your spouse insists upon a diamond, you may compromise, but also negotiate something of equal value to you. Perhaps, in exchange, you get sole authority to furnish and decorate the living room in any shared domicile, guaranteed. You could install an octopus tank. You could put footballs on doilies on cinder blocks. You could create your own Batcave, Starfleet bridge, or Vault-Tec bunker. You could cover the walls in deep-pile maroon shag carpet. You could install 31.1 surround sound, using 24K gold Monster cables insulated with albino alpaca wool braids. If the ring is a signal to your spouse's social circle that you are the best partner, so too is having all that embarrassing decor connected to the front door of the house, rather than hidden away in the basement. If you have any inkling that particular compromise may be stupid and selfish, and not useful at all to the marriage as a whole, don't ask for a diamond ring. A diamond is not forever. A 1:1-scale replica of the TARDIS in your living room is forever. If you burn a significant fraction of the family resources on a useless toy just for you, your spouse will be entirely justified in spending an equal amount on pointless toys just for them. And you can get a lot of pointless toys for the price of one ring--some of them will even yield a higher resale price. If you don't want your marriage to be stupid and wasteful, you have to set a higher standard right from the start.

gherthra 12y ago

I love my engagement ring, sure it's not practical and we'll never get the money back that was paid for it. Every time I look at it sparkling, I think about my husband, and I think about the rock itself, where it came from, how it was formed, how old it is, and it makes me really happy. We aren't short of money so the purchase of the ring wasn't a big deal - we would easily spend twice the amount of the ring's value on travel every year. The ring is diamond and platinum and it's very strong - I've smashed it against all sorts of things, gone canyoning, scuba diving, you name it, and the platinum is barely scratched. We plan to keep this ring in the family and pass it down through the generations. The sentimentality and 'family heirloom' qualities are also really appealing to us. I'd much prefer this ring than a rolex, or a gold Apple iPhone for that matter!

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brohee 12y ago
"I think about the rock itself, where it came from, how it was formed, how old it is, and it makes me really happy" While you're thinking, think about how it was mined and trafficked, and try to estimate the amount of blood it took to get it on your ring... It's maybe none, but you'll never know for sure... A Rolex at least is made by skilled and respected craftsmen, rough diamonds are often the product of war and slavery...

tormeh 12y ago

On throwing away money as signalling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhEpMJ3n_wU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhEpMJ3n_wU Really, watch it. Both hilarious and sad. And yeah, "wasting" is a real thing (but as far as I know only for drinks).

SuddsMcDuff 12y ago

Not sure if that's the best way to look at it. You bought your wife the ring as a token of your everlasting devotion to her - there's a certain poetic quality to that token being made of the hardest substance on Earth. You didn't buy the ring as an investment, I mean what are you going to do, take the ring back and sell it when the market is more favourable? Any profit you make will be quickly swallowed up by the divorce.