10 ms·

Why Many Smart, Low-Income Students Don't Apply to Elite Schools

109 points by eroo 12y ago

ElectricFeel 12y ago
at a NON-Ivy League University, you are unambiguously the best or one of the best students so you can have more authority & get a good job earlier
- randomnumber53 12y ago
  That's true. I actually read a study recently that talked about how every non-Ivy League university admits exactly one high-achieving person: YOU!
fiatmoney 12y ago
"High-scoring on SAT" (take this as a proxy for "smart"; after all, colleges do) & "low income" correlates well with 3 groups in particular: 1) Recent Asian immigrants 2) Rural whites in flyover country 3) Urban children of (white and Asian) parents in low-paying prestige professions (teachers, museum curators, nonprofits, etc).
- sukilot 12y ago
  Teachers are not low-income.
  - fiatmoney 12y ago
    Depends on the area and specialty. Adjuncts are notoriously ill paid. North Carolina public school teachers likewise.
- trynumber9 12y ago
  > 2) Rural whites in flyover country They usually take the ACT in flyover country, don't they? [0] 0: http://studypoint.com/ed/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/SAT.ACT-test-takers-map.jpg http://studypoint.com/ed/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/SAT.ACT-...
rickdale 12y ago
This reminds me of the story about the high school kids that took on MIT and many other schools in an underwater robot competition and won. This exerpt from the article at the bottom sums it up: During one scene in "Underwater Dreams," the Carl Hayden team members head to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to meet with members of the 2004 team they defeated. The MIT alums talk about their current jobs. Three are involved in underwater robotics, with one headed to a project in Antarctica. Another designs accessories for Apple products. One student then asks the Carl Hayden team what they are up to. It's a scene that Mazzio says has made audiences in test screenings uncomfortable. "It's heartbreaking," she said. "Here you have kids that can compete and that clearly are innovative, that love to build and to fuel the country forward ... We need these kids, and they face these impediments." http://www.azcentral.com/story/life/az-narratives/2014/07/17/phoenix-high-school-win-mit-resonates-decade-later/12777467/ http://www.azcentral.com/story/life/az-narratives/2014/07/17...
- lugg 12y ago
  > Of the four, only one, Vazquez, has a job in an engineering-related field. Arcega is attempting to start his own consumer electronics business. Santillan has a catering business and a job at a restaurant. Aranda is a janitorial supervisor at the Maricopa County courthouses. > All four entered the country illegally as children. For three of the four, their legal status has been an obstacle to entering college or finding employment. > "I can't let that get to me," Arcega said, "because that's always going to be an uphill battle with everything." Kind of left me hanging so thought I'd add the conclusion in here.
  - vinhboy 12y ago
    Every time I hear these stories I always think to myself, if those guys became engineers, they'd eventually make around $100K. At a modest 20% tax rate, thats 20K a year in revenue for our country.
    - barry-cotter 12y ago
      What you say is true. What is not true is that those children were typical illegal immigrants. Most illegal immigrants have low educational background and their incomes will reflect that. They and their citizen children are usually a net drain on the government. Legal immigrants are a different story. If you want to argue for Open Borders go for it but the current US immigration system is a clusterfuck that makes no sense on any level. It's also extremely unlikely to be reformed for many, many reasons.
twblalock 12y ago
The Ivy League has a big problem promoting their financial aid packages. A lot of people don't know that low-income students can attend for free. There is no catch, it really is free, as the article here has mentioned. The Ivy League needs to do a much better job getting the word out about this to the students who might benefit from it.
- pcurve 12y ago
  Most Ivy has means testing calculator that will tell students what their tuition would be. In the days of internet, I actually found it surprising that many of these brilliant students didn't know that they can get free rides at Ivys.
  - randomnumber53 12y ago
    It is interesting that people are talking about the Ivies, not "elite colleges" in general. The article defines a high achiever as "anyone who gets a 29 or better on the ACT or a combined 1,300 on the SAT." At most elite schools (Ivies + MIT, Caltech, Stanford, etc.) a 30 ACT score would be rather below average.
    - pcurve 12y ago
      I think people lump MIT/Caltech/Stanford into Ivy bucket, even though they're superior to half the Ivies. You're right about the score. My guess is that these schools have different yardstick for rural + low income factors. And more importantly, they have billions in endowment to be able to 'afford' the fancy yardstick.
  - convexfunction 12y ago
    I didn't learn Ivies commonly gave free rides until a while into my undergraduate at my state public university. I think what you're seeing is more an issue of questioning the specific assumptions that prevent the question from springing to mind, than it is knowing how to answer questions by searching the internet. Remember that their low-income parents and public school are probably doing very little or nothing to guide them through the applications process, and quite likely not even much to grok the sort of cultures where you have selection processes that require a lot of effort and domain knowledge, in general. This is a non-trivial case of jootsing if you aren't already immersed in a culture that brings you most of the way to asking the question. It's a serious test of reflective intelligence, unlike SATs and acquiring grades and conforming to the college admissions process which are pretty much all about algorithmic intelligence (using Stanovich's terminology).
RyJones 12y ago
Also, this week on This American Life: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/550/three-miles http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/550/t...
protomyth 12y ago
This article hits it on the head with the local counselors and lack of recruiting past certain zip codes. The counselor problem is mitigated a little bit by the internet, but the recruiting is still problematic. When I graduated in the late 80's, I had score on both tests above what was stated (ND is an ACT state, but I took the SAT also), and a DOE (energy) summer program entrance (1 per state). There was no recruiting and our school had zero resources[1]. Only outside information that got back to me (I wrote several schools for admission information) was Texas A&M with a oil industry scholarship and the state colleges. Went to the state college. This is one of the reasons I get a bit riled up anytime someone says we have a talent shortage in the US. We have plenty of talent, its just not convenient. To add insult to injury, my high school counselor screwed up a form that would have given me $2,000 a year scholarship. I was a bit peeved. He was a bit too busy with a rumored side business. 1) including the crap library - couldn't use the library in the next town as it had a nice border to keep the riffraff out. taxes you know.
acadien 12y ago
The Ivy Leauge admits roughly 20,000 students every year [1]. Lets say they give one fifth of those get free admission. That is a total of 4000 kids which is practically nothing! Roughly 5 million people are admitted to University every year in the US[2]! So maybe 0.08% of all University students get a free ride at an ivy league. Really this makes no difference except for padding the Ivy League's statistics, its of little to no help for most 'talented low income' highschool students. [1]http://theivycoach.com/ivy-league-admissions-statistics/ http://theivycoach.com/ivy-league-admissions-statistics/ [2]http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98 http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98 Edit: To address most of the responses below. I'm implying that even if all appropriate students applied for these programs, as the article suggests, it wouldn't make a difference because some tiny fraction of them would be admitted. There are very few opportunities for low income students unless they are willing to take on the burden of debt. Some lottery that gives a tiny fraction of them free tuition is not a solution, it is offensive to suggest they have opportunities they simply do not have. Fix the broken system, correct tuition costs!
- nicholasdrake 12y ago
  would say the poor students who don't get free admission are credit constrained? can't they just get a loan?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - jhundal 12y ago
    It's hard to know what the outcome of your education is going to be, so the risk of not being able to pay off a loan may just be too great. I am not aware of any elite colleges publishing statistics on things like the job placement rate and post-graduation income of lower income students. (On that note, if anyone knows where to get these numbers I would love to take a look.)
    - nicholasdrake 12y ago
      i don't have the numbers but it's very interesting u say that because one of my best friends and i are actually going to apply to this summer yc batch with our idea of 'human capital' where we pay for poor, but very bright students to go to university and in return they give us a small % of their lifetime income. to be honest the reason we are excited about htis idea is actually more from the investor stand-point (would love ur feedback if u're interested http://nicholasdrake.svbtle.com/human-capital-investing-in-the-future http://nicholasdrake.svbtle.com/human-capital-investing-in-t...). but we also thikn it has lots of nice properties from the student side in particular, debt is constant regardless of your situation, whereas as we're 'taking equity' in the students if you can't find a job or only a low paying job you pay much less. of course, to make it balance it out if you are super successful you have to pay more, but we think for poor and thus likely risk averse students this is a great way to finance an education. would be really great to have your feedback if you have time.
andrewchoi 12y ago
I worked with QuestBridge during college, and they're making strides towards solving the outreach and awareness problem: http://www.questbridge.org/ http://www.questbridge.org/
randomnumber53 12y ago
It disappoints me that so many commentators on the NPR site infer from the title--"Why Many Smart, Low-Income Students Don't Apply To Elite Schools"--that the article is essentially bashing "big fancy private college[s]" for being overpriced and not-worth-it. In contrary, it author/article is trying to find and explain why the above misconception exists. And it seems as though the people this article would most help don't even read it.
- vinhboy 12y ago
  Don't worry, NPR already did a story on how many of their commenters don't actually read their articles. There is also a weird amount of astroturfing in the NPR comment section.
mattmurdog 12y ago
I still remember the day my father pulled me aside and told me in secret (my mom would have freaked out) that we couldn't really afford college. He recommended that I stayed close to home and to go to a local school, which I did for 4+ years with an average of four hours a day worth of commuting. Occasionally, I also had a part time job that added almost two more extra hours of commuting because it took me to another side of the town and I had to walk half a mile to get to work after getting off the bus.
- rfergie 12y ago
  Was it uphill both ways?
  - mattmurdog 12y ago
    Only one god damn hill, but that was another trip all the way across another god damn town when I needed to go buy groceries ;P
- nicholasdrake 12y ago
  why didn't u get a student loan?
  - dragontamer 12y ago
    So that he didn't have to join Occupy? http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/g-cvr-111025-loans-7p.grid-6x2.jpg http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/g-... Or have we forgotten about that already?
    - nicholasdrake 12y ago
      haha good point.. actually my friend and i are applying this summer batch of yc with an alternative to student debt financing of university... student equity.. from the student side it helps in 2 ways 1. taxes high income earners more, low income earners less (remember when you start uni you don't know for sure which group you will be in) 2. allows you to transfer future income from your middle-age when your income is higher to when you have just graduated (and income is lower).. debt in comparison punishes procrastination of payment with interest payments.. it would be great to get your feedback if you have teh chance.. we've posted our draft of our yc application here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224487 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224487 thanks!
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
gojomo 12y ago
The article mostly takes as a given that attending the 'elite' school would be better for these students. There's one quote late in the article, from the article's main source Stanford econ professor Hoxby, suggesting there's a big lifetime earnings-boost after graduating from top schools. But, the actual story is a bit more complicated. Some research suggests that admitted students capable of attending top schools, who then choose to go to 'lesser' schools, do just about as well. Here's coverage of one such study: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/revisiting-the-value-of-elite-colleges/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/revisiting-the-... Also note that the studies supporting big lifetime earnings boosts for either 'college' or 'elite colleges' tend to be based on graduating, not just enrolling. Graduation is not automatic, especially among low-income/first-generation admits. A student who chooses a nearer, cheaper, less-prestigous school may be increasing their chances of graduating enough to offset the premiums-conditional-on-graduation elsewhere. There are some very-credentialist fields where school-prestige is of paramount importance – especially college education itself (graduate degrees/professorships) and some high-dollar finance/consulting/law careers. But there are many other careers, just as attractive to students and society, where college-prestige is far less important. For these, if a student plans to settle back near their hometown, the education and contacts from a locally-respected institution may be as good or better than a far-away prestigious degree. So one answer to "why many smart low-income students don't apply to elite schools" may be that these students are really quite smart, and do actually know better what's right for them.
- morgante 12y ago
  The very study you linked to actually disproves your comment. For most students, there isn't much of an economic advantage to attending an elite university. However, as Krueger highlights in the NYT article, for underprivileged students attending a prestigious university does have a significant impact on earnings (even after controlling for ability). So the very students this NPR article is talking about are those who would most benefit from attending a prestigious university. > So one answer to "why many smart low-income students don't apply to elite schools" may be that these students are really quite smart, and do actually know better what's right for them. Nope. They would almost invariably do better by going to an elite university. Doing so will provide a significant earnings boost, not to mention that it's usually free. Intelligent low income students will usually get the best aid package from an elite university (usually a grant covering tuition, room, and board), thus making that choice cost effective even in the short run. We need to encourage more low income students to realize that elite universities are a great option for them. On the flip side, middle income students should wake up to the reality that attending a second rate private university is a terrible economic decision.
dataker 12y ago
The title has the assumption students should be applying to 'elite schools'. First, Stanford/MIT/... cannot get as many smart students as needed. If the top 10% of US students deserved an elite school, that'd be nearly 0.5M students/year: an impossible number for these institutions. Secondly, for many students, such education might not be the wisest choice. Fortunately, I went to a local college and had more time to learn things on my own. Instead of going to Psychology classes and studying for finals, I contributed to open source projects and went to hackathons. At Harvard, I would never do these things on my own.
nerdy 12y ago
"Why Many Smart, Low-Income Students Don't Apply to Elite Schools" Seems rather self-explanatory, doesn't it? "Elite" schools are typically outrageously priced so unless you (or your parents) have a bunch of money to throw around, accumulating Ivy League debt would seem rather stupid.
- morgante 12y ago
  Good point! This other NPR story is very fitting to your comment: http://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297690717/why-doesnt-america-read-anymore http://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297690717/why-doesnt-america-r...
  - nerdy 12y ago
    How is that article relevant to my comment? Finance is the last reason in the article, but likely the most influential factor. The hoops required aren't worth jumping through to go to a "selective" school anyhow, unless you want to take the opinion of people who work for the most selective school in the country. That'd be pretty naive, wouldn't it? btw... this other HN page is very fitting to your comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - morgante 12y ago
      The article is specifically about the widespread myth (which you're repeating) that elite schools are too expensive for low income students. If you'd actually bothered to read the article, you'd note that most elite universities actually provide extensive financial aid to low income students. In fact, probably the easiest way to afford an Ivy is not to have oodles of money—it's to have very little money, as families making under $60,000 annually typically receive a full ride. > And I don't put much credence in something said by someone who's on the payroll of an institution poised to benefit from them saying selective schools benefit people long-term. I don't even understand what you're trying to imply there. Why do you think that an NPR reporter would benefit from (accurately) reporting that elite universities are affordable? If anything, she'd probably get more pageviews from repeating the tired myth that elite universities are unaffordable. Not to mention that financial aid isn't something universities can lie about. It's pretty easy to demonstrate the elite universities do in fact give fantastic aid packages. I know this anecdotally from the packages I received (including a full ride), but you could also note that the average Princeton graduate has a total of only $5,000 in loans.
littletimmy 12y ago
As a low-income student who attended an Ivy League university, I'd like to mention one more reason about why low-income students don't apply to elite schools. They just don't fit in. I was the best student in my shitty high school and so I applied and happened to get into an Ivy League school. The environment there was so incredibly different I just didn't fit in. Super-preppy good looking kids (they all are thin and tend to look good) who are invariably very well-spoken, totally expectant of all the resources lavished upon them, and just know how to talk to professors and interview for jobs and so on. I was of a different breed. Ugly, fat, not well-spoken, no idea how to talk to professors, no gutso to challenge a nobel prize winner on his opinion. I was also somewhat shocked with the amount of resources provided to students. For example, for unpaid summer internships my college just gave out $5000 in living expenses so undergrads could do any unpaid internship they wanted. That's about a quarter of what my family earns in a year. Not complaining, of course, but I hope you see how alien this environment was for me. Same was the case with interviews, I didn't have a suit and I had no idea how to bond with an interviewer over our shared love for some exotic sport like skiing. I just didn't fit in. If I were to do it over again I would pick my Ivy League school again, but I recognize that it is an alien environment. I can totally see why another low-income student would be scared by all this and just not apply. PS: If I went to a school like MIT maybe my experience would be different. I went to one of YPD, which are traditionally more preppy.
- SpaceManNabs 12y ago
  It is a similar thing here at Princeton. It wasn't until recently that low income issues were discussed in the USG and groups like the Hidden Minority Council got attention. Even then, there is strong backlash.
- peri 12y ago
  This matches my experience at Columbia completely. I felt completely out of place and estranged outside of a few geek-interest clubs. I'm lucky I found those — coming from public school, even a really good one, the culture shock was overwhelming.
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  >For example, for unpaid summer internships my college just gave out $5000 in living expenses so undergrads could do any unpaid internship they wanted. What... the... hell? Nobody gave us anything like that at a state school.
weissadam 12y ago
It makes a lot more sense once you come to realize that these places aren't about promoting and driving social mobility, and rather they exist to sustain existing positions by strengthening and fortifying class divide. (all the while collecting a nice tithe in the process) In essence, they serve the wealthy by keeping the wealthy, wealthy. They earn their keep in terms of donations for the service they provide. The few token kids who come from the real world who are given a free ride each year are there just to provide window dressing. Most of them indeed seem out of place, and often have looks of dejection on their faces. I have some personal experience with the Ivy League and I was really unimpressed. Since choosing a school is such a big gamble, especially in an increasingly competitive world, I don't want to make claims as to what people should do... but... I really do like the strong public university systems on the west coast. They are actually truly diverse places, and while some may be resource lean, I think they tend to lead to a lot more social mobility. If you ask me, I think we'd be a whole lot better off if these places weren't unconditionally lent the credibility they enjoy.

109 points by eroo 12y ago

at a NON-Ivy League University, you are unambiguously the best or one of the best students so you can have more authority & get a good job earlier

randomnumber53 12y ago
That's true. I actually read a study recently that talked about how every non-Ivy League university admits exactly one high-achieving person: YOU!

fiatmoney 12y ago

"High-scoring on SAT" (take this as a proxy for "smart"; after all, colleges do) & "low income" correlates well with 3 groups in particular: 1) Recent Asian immigrants 2) Rural whites in flyover country 3) Urban children of (white and Asian) parents in low-paying prestige professions (teachers, museum curators, nonprofits, etc).

sukilot 12y ago
Teachers are not low-income.
- fiatmoney 12y ago
  Depends on the area and specialty. Adjuncts are notoriously ill paid. North Carolina public school teachers likewise.
trynumber9 12y ago
> 2) Rural whites in flyover country They usually take the ACT in flyover country, don't they? [0] 0: http://studypoint.com/ed/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/SAT.ACT-test-takers-map.jpg http://studypoint.com/ed/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/SAT.ACT-...

rickdale 12y ago

This reminds me of the story about the high school kids that took on MIT and many other schools in an underwater robot competition and won. This exerpt from the article at the bottom sums it up: During one scene in "Underwater Dreams," the Carl Hayden team members head to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to meet with members of the 2004 team they defeated. The MIT alums talk about their current jobs. Three are involved in underwater robotics, with one headed to a project in Antarctica. Another designs accessories for Apple products. One student then asks the Carl Hayden team what they are up to. It's a scene that Mazzio says has made audiences in test screenings uncomfortable. "It's heartbreaking," she said. "Here you have kids that can compete and that clearly are innovative, that love to build and to fuel the country forward ... We need these kids, and they face these impediments." http://www.azcentral.com/story/life/az-narratives/2014/07/17/phoenix-high-school-win-mit-resonates-decade-later/12777467/ http://www.azcentral.com/story/life/az-narratives/2014/07/17...

lugg 12y ago
> Of the four, only one, Vazquez, has a job in an engineering-related field. Arcega is attempting to start his own consumer electronics business. Santillan has a catering business and a job at a restaurant. Aranda is a janitorial supervisor at the Maricopa County courthouses. > All four entered the country illegally as children. For three of the four, their legal status has been an obstacle to entering college or finding employment. > "I can't let that get to me," Arcega said, "because that's always going to be an uphill battle with everything." Kind of left me hanging so thought I'd add the conclusion in here.
- vinhboy 12y ago
  Every time I hear these stories I always think to myself, if those guys became engineers, they'd eventually make around $100K. At a modest 20% tax rate, thats 20K a year in revenue for our country.
  - barry-cotter 12y ago
    What you say is true. What is not true is that those children were typical illegal immigrants. Most illegal immigrants have low educational background and their incomes will reflect that. They and their citizen children are usually a net drain on the government. Legal immigrants are a different story. If you want to argue for Open Borders go for it but the current US immigration system is a clusterfuck that makes no sense on any level. It's also extremely unlikely to be reformed for many, many reasons.

twblalock 12y ago

The Ivy League has a big problem promoting their financial aid packages. A lot of people don't know that low-income students can attend for free. There is no catch, it really is free, as the article here has mentioned. The Ivy League needs to do a much better job getting the word out about this to the students who might benefit from it.

pcurve 12y ago
Most Ivy has means testing calculator that will tell students what their tuition would be. In the days of internet, I actually found it surprising that many of these brilliant students didn't know that they can get free rides at Ivys.
- randomnumber53 12y ago
  It is interesting that people are talking about the Ivies, not "elite colleges" in general. The article defines a high achiever as "anyone who gets a 29 or better on the ACT or a combined 1,300 on the SAT." At most elite schools (Ivies + MIT, Caltech, Stanford, etc.) a 30 ACT score would be rather below average.
  - pcurve 12y ago
    I think people lump MIT/Caltech/Stanford into Ivy bucket, even though they're superior to half the Ivies. You're right about the score. My guess is that these schools have different yardstick for rural + low income factors. And more importantly, they have billions in endowment to be able to 'afford' the fancy yardstick.
- convexfunction 12y ago
  I didn't learn Ivies commonly gave free rides until a while into my undergraduate at my state public university. I think what you're seeing is more an issue of questioning the specific assumptions that prevent the question from springing to mind, than it is knowing how to answer questions by searching the internet. Remember that their low-income parents and public school are probably doing very little or nothing to guide them through the applications process, and quite likely not even much to grok the sort of cultures where you have selection processes that require a lot of effort and domain knowledge, in general. This is a non-trivial case of jootsing if you aren't already immersed in a culture that brings you most of the way to asking the question. It's a serious test of reflective intelligence, unlike SATs and acquiring grades and conforming to the college admissions process which are pretty much all about algorithmic intelligence (using Stanovich's terminology).

RyJones 12y ago

Also, this week on This American Life: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/550/three-miles http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/550/t...

protomyth 12y ago

This article hits it on the head with the local counselors and lack of recruiting past certain zip codes. The counselor problem is mitigated a little bit by the internet, but the recruiting is still problematic. When I graduated in the late 80's, I had score on both tests above what was stated (ND is an ACT state, but I took the SAT also), and a DOE (energy) summer program entrance (1 per state). There was no recruiting and our school had zero resources[1]. Only outside information that got back to me (I wrote several schools for admission information) was Texas A&M with a oil industry scholarship and the state colleges. Went to the state college. This is one of the reasons I get a bit riled up anytime someone says we have a talent shortage in the US. We have plenty of talent, its just not convenient. To add insult to injury, my high school counselor screwed up a form that would have given me $2,000 a year scholarship. I was a bit peeved. He was a bit too busy with a rumored side business. 1) including the crap library - couldn't use the library in the next town as it had a nice border to keep the riffraff out. taxes you know.

acadien 12y ago

The Ivy Leauge admits roughly 20,000 students every year [1]. Lets say they give one fifth of those get free admission. That is a total of 4000 kids which is practically nothing! Roughly 5 million people are admitted to University every year in the US[2]! So maybe 0.08% of all University students get a free ride at an ivy league. Really this makes no difference except for padding the Ivy League's statistics, its of little to no help for most 'talented low income' highschool students. [1]http://theivycoach.com/ivy-league-admissions-statistics/ http://theivycoach.com/ivy-league-admissions-statistics/ [2]http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98 http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98 Edit: To address most of the responses below. I'm implying that even if all appropriate students applied for these programs, as the article suggests, it wouldn't make a difference because some tiny fraction of them would be admitted. There are very few opportunities for low income students unless they are willing to take on the burden of debt. Some lottery that gives a tiny fraction of them free tuition is not a solution, it is offensive to suggest they have opportunities they simply do not have. Fix the broken system, correct tuition costs!

nicholasdrake 12y ago
would say the poor students who don't get free admission are credit constrained? can't they just get a loan?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- jhundal 12y ago
  It's hard to know what the outcome of your education is going to be, so the risk of not being able to pay off a loan may just be too great. I am not aware of any elite colleges publishing statistics on things like the job placement rate and post-graduation income of lower income students. (On that note, if anyone knows where to get these numbers I would love to take a look.)
  - nicholasdrake 12y ago
    i don't have the numbers but it's very interesting u say that because one of my best friends and i are actually going to apply to this summer yc batch with our idea of 'human capital' where we pay for poor, but very bright students to go to university and in return they give us a small % of their lifetime income. to be honest the reason we are excited about htis idea is actually more from the investor stand-point (would love ur feedback if u're interested http://nicholasdrake.svbtle.com/human-capital-investing-in-the-future http://nicholasdrake.svbtle.com/human-capital-investing-in-t...). but we also thikn it has lots of nice properties from the student side in particular, debt is constant regardless of your situation, whereas as we're 'taking equity' in the students if you can't find a job or only a low paying job you pay much less. of course, to make it balance it out if you are super successful you have to pay more, but we think for poor and thus likely risk averse students this is a great way to finance an education. would be really great to have your feedback if you have time.

andrewchoi 12y ago

I worked with QuestBridge during college, and they're making strides towards solving the outreach and awareness problem: http://www.questbridge.org/ http://www.questbridge.org/

randomnumber53 12y ago

It disappoints me that so many commentators on the NPR site infer from the title--"Why Many Smart, Low-Income Students Don't Apply To Elite Schools"--that the article is essentially bashing "big fancy private college[s]" for being overpriced and not-worth-it. In contrary, it author/article is trying to find and explain why the above misconception exists. And it seems as though the people this article would most help don't even read it.

vinhboy 12y ago
Don't worry, NPR already did a story on how many of their commenters don't actually read their articles. There is also a weird amount of astroturfing in the NPR comment section.

mattmurdog 12y ago

I still remember the day my father pulled me aside and told me in secret (my mom would have freaked out) that we couldn't really afford college. He recommended that I stayed close to home and to go to a local school, which I did for 4+ years with an average of four hours a day worth of commuting. Occasionally, I also had a part time job that added almost two more extra hours of commuting because it took me to another side of the town and I had to walk half a mile to get to work after getting off the bus.

rfergie 12y ago
Was it uphill both ways?
- mattmurdog 12y ago
  Only one god damn hill, but that was another trip all the way across another god damn town when I needed to go buy groceries ;P
nicholasdrake 12y ago
why didn't u get a student loan?
- dragontamer 12y ago
  So that he didn't have to join Occupy? http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/g-cvr-111025-loans-7p.grid-6x2.jpg http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/g-... Or have we forgotten about that already?
  - nicholasdrake 12y ago
    haha good point.. actually my friend and i are applying this summer batch of yc with an alternative to student debt financing of university... student equity.. from the student side it helps in 2 ways 1. taxes high income earners more, low income earners less (remember when you start uni you don't know for sure which group you will be in) 2. allows you to transfer future income from your middle-age when your income is higher to when you have just graduated (and income is lower).. debt in comparison punishes procrastination of payment with interest payments.. it would be great to get your feedback if you have teh chance.. we've posted our draft of our yc application here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224487 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224487 thanks!

deleted 12y ago

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gojomo 12y ago

The article mostly takes as a given that attending the 'elite' school would be better for these students. There's one quote late in the article, from the article's main source Stanford econ professor Hoxby, suggesting there's a big lifetime earnings-boost after graduating from top schools. But, the actual story is a bit more complicated. Some research suggests that admitted students capable of attending top schools, who then choose to go to 'lesser' schools, do just about as well. Here's coverage of one such study: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/revisiting-the-value-of-elite-colleges/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/revisiting-the-... Also note that the studies supporting big lifetime earnings boosts for either 'college' or 'elite colleges' tend to be based on graduating, not just enrolling. Graduation is not automatic, especially among low-income/first-generation admits. A student who chooses a nearer, cheaper, less-prestigous school may be increasing their chances of graduating enough to offset the premiums-conditional-on-graduation elsewhere. There are some very-credentialist fields where school-prestige is of paramount importance – especially college education itself (graduate degrees/professorships) and some high-dollar finance/consulting/law careers. But there are many other careers, just as attractive to students and society, where college-prestige is far less important. For these, if a student plans to settle back near their hometown, the education and contacts from a locally-respected institution may be as good or better than a far-away prestigious degree. So one answer to "why many smart low-income students don't apply to elite schools" may be that these students are really quite smart, and do actually know better what's right for them.

morgante 12y ago
The very study you linked to actually disproves your comment. For most students, there isn't much of an economic advantage to attending an elite university. However, as Krueger highlights in the NYT article, for underprivileged students attending a prestigious university does have a significant impact on earnings (even after controlling for ability). So the very students this NPR article is talking about are those who would most benefit from attending a prestigious university. > So one answer to "why many smart low-income students don't apply to elite schools" may be that these students are really quite smart, and do actually know better what's right for them. Nope. They would almost invariably do better by going to an elite university. Doing so will provide a significant earnings boost, not to mention that it's usually free. Intelligent low income students will usually get the best aid package from an elite university (usually a grant covering tuition, room, and board), thus making that choice cost effective even in the short run. We need to encourage more low income students to realize that elite universities are a great option for them. On the flip side, middle income students should wake up to the reality that attending a second rate private university is a terrible economic decision.

dataker 12y ago

The title has the assumption students should be applying to 'elite schools'. First, Stanford/MIT/... cannot get as many smart students as needed. If the top 10% of US students deserved an elite school, that'd be nearly 0.5M students/year: an impossible number for these institutions. Secondly, for many students, such education might not be the wisest choice. Fortunately, I went to a local college and had more time to learn things on my own. Instead of going to Psychology classes and studying for finals, I contributed to open source projects and went to hackathons. At Harvard, I would never do these things on my own.

nerdy 12y ago

"Why Many Smart, Low-Income Students Don't Apply to Elite Schools" Seems rather self-explanatory, doesn't it? "Elite" schools are typically outrageously priced so unless you (or your parents) have a bunch of money to throw around, accumulating Ivy League debt would seem rather stupid.

morgante 12y ago
Good point! This other NPR story is very fitting to your comment: http://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297690717/why-doesnt-america-read-anymore http://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297690717/why-doesnt-america-r...
- nerdy 12y ago
  How is that article relevant to my comment? Finance is the last reason in the article, but likely the most influential factor. The hoops required aren't worth jumping through to go to a "selective" school anyhow, unless you want to take the opinion of people who work for the most selective school in the country. That'd be pretty naive, wouldn't it? btw... this other HN page is very fitting to your comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - morgante 12y ago
    The article is specifically about the widespread myth (which you're repeating) that elite schools are too expensive for low income students. If you'd actually bothered to read the article, you'd note that most elite universities actually provide extensive financial aid to low income students. In fact, probably the easiest way to afford an Ivy is not to have oodles of money—it's to have very little money, as families making under $60,000 annually typically receive a full ride. > And I don't put much credence in something said by someone who's on the payroll of an institution poised to benefit from them saying selective schools benefit people long-term. I don't even understand what you're trying to imply there. Why do you think that an NPR reporter would benefit from (accurately) reporting that elite universities are affordable? If anything, she'd probably get more pageviews from repeating the tired myth that elite universities are unaffordable. Not to mention that financial aid isn't something universities can lie about. It's pretty easy to demonstrate the elite universities do in fact give fantastic aid packages. I know this anecdotally from the packages I received (including a full ride), but you could also note that the average Princeton graduate has a total of only $5,000 in loans.

littletimmy 12y ago

As a low-income student who attended an Ivy League university, I'd like to mention one more reason about why low-income students don't apply to elite schools. They just don't fit in. I was the best student in my shitty high school and so I applied and happened to get into an Ivy League school. The environment there was so incredibly different I just didn't fit in. Super-preppy good looking kids (they all are thin and tend to look good) who are invariably very well-spoken, totally expectant of all the resources lavished upon them, and just know how to talk to professors and interview for jobs and so on. I was of a different breed. Ugly, fat, not well-spoken, no idea how to talk to professors, no gutso to challenge a nobel prize winner on his opinion. I was also somewhat shocked with the amount of resources provided to students. For example, for unpaid summer internships my college just gave out $5000 in living expenses so undergrads could do any unpaid internship they wanted. That's about a quarter of what my family earns in a year. Not complaining, of course, but I hope you see how alien this environment was for me. Same was the case with interviews, I didn't have a suit and I had no idea how to bond with an interviewer over our shared love for some exotic sport like skiing. I just didn't fit in. If I were to do it over again I would pick my Ivy League school again, but I recognize that it is an alien environment. I can totally see why another low-income student would be scared by all this and just not apply. PS: If I went to a school like MIT maybe my experience would be different. I went to one of YPD, which are traditionally more preppy.

SpaceManNabs 12y ago
It is a similar thing here at Princeton. It wasn't until recently that low income issues were discussed in the USG and groups like the Hidden Minority Council got attention. Even then, there is strong backlash.
peri 12y ago
This matches my experience at Columbia completely. I felt completely out of place and estranged outside of a few geek-interest clubs. I'm lucky I found those — coming from public school, even a really good one, the culture shock was overwhelming.
eli_gottlieb 12y ago
>For example, for unpaid summer internships my college just gave out $5000 in living expenses so undergrads could do any unpaid internship they wanted. What... the... hell? Nobody gave us anything like that at a state school.

weissadam 12y ago

It makes a lot more sense once you come to realize that these places aren't about promoting and driving social mobility, and rather they exist to sustain existing positions by strengthening and fortifying class divide. (all the while collecting a nice tithe in the process) In essence, they serve the wealthy by keeping the wealthy, wealthy. They earn their keep in terms of donations for the service they provide. The few token kids who come from the real world who are given a free ride each year are there just to provide window dressing. Most of them indeed seem out of place, and often have looks of dejection on their faces. I have some personal experience with the Ivy League and I was really unimpressed. Since choosing a school is such a big gamble, especially in an increasingly competitive world, I don't want to make claims as to what people should do... but... I really do like the strong public university systems on the west coast. They are actually truly diverse places, and while some may be resource lean, I think they tend to lead to a lot more social mobility. If you ask me, I think we'd be a whole lot better off if these places weren't unconditionally lent the credibility they enjoy.