6 ms·

Why in god's name does a laptop that large not have independent home/end/pgup/pgdn keys. This trend drives me nuts.

by stormbrew 12y ago

dima55 12y ago
Or a second windows key. Or separate mouse buttons. Sigh
- slantyyz 12y ago
  >> Or separate mouse buttons. I find that part to be the most annoying part of touch pads on non-Mac laptops these days. I get that Apple has the reputation for having the best pads (which makes them an ideal source for copying ideas), but I've always hated the clicking mechanism on my Macbook Pro, especially when it came to right clicks. My Lenovo Y50 at least doesn't require a second finger to right click, but I would rather have had two discrete, tactile buttons for the pad.
  - stilldavid 12y ago
    > ... especially when it came to right clicks Just curious, do you have secondary click set to click with two fingers, or to click in bottom right corner?
    - slantyyz 12y ago
      I'm admittedly clumsy and imprecise with touch pads, so neither option works well for me. On my Mac, I had it set to the default, which was two fingers. On my Lenovo, it's set to click in the bottom right half. I keep missing (because I don't look down) and click the bottom left half by mistake.
- jgrowl 12y ago
  Why do people use a second windows button? I've never understood how it is useful.
  - slantyyz 12y ago
    >> Why do people use a second windows button? It's useful to people who prefer to (or are conditioned to) hit it with their right hand.
  - organsnyder 12y ago
    I like to remap those keys to AltGr and/or compose. Makes it much easier to type accents, proper punctuation…
  - qzcx 12y ago
    On my mac, I use the right command key to one hand commands which require it and something on the right right keyboard. Very useful
mod 12y ago
That removes me from the market. I use those keys incessantly, browsing the web and coding both. I bought a very large Asus gaming laptop primarily for this reason, and I'm very fond of the placement, as well (above the numpad, can be easily found without looking). Other things that are important to me is a gap to be able to feel F5 without looking, and same for the arrow keys. So many keyboards put the arrow keys--which require a hand movement--inline with other keys without making them distinct. At the very least put a nub on the up key or something.
- smellf 12y ago
  > That removes me from the market. Same. And what kind of developer edition laptop doesn't have a full keyboard, i.e. a numpad? It drives me nuts.
  - jethro_tell 12y ago
    The kind where they want the keyboard to be centered on the machine. I hate number pads on laptops because then the keyboard is off center. I can't really think of anything that would actually make it a feature worth the shift. Different strokes, I guess.
  - illicium 12y ago
    One that is not 13". This is meant to be a compact machine, not a desktop replacement.
  - rifung 12y ago
    What do you use the numpad for when developing? Just curious because I actually prefer keyboards that don't have it to save desk space
jgrowl 12y ago
I never use those keys personally. I guess because I use vi bindings wherever possible.
tpeaton 12y ago
I have an older xps 13, which has the same keyboard layout as the m3800. I actually really like stacking page up/down, home, and end on the arrow keys. I use keyboard shortcuts as much as possible and can hit these very quickly. The function key right next to the left control key in conjunction with these works very well for me. It took a few days to get used to, but I love it now. Certainly much better than some of the other more funky positioning of dedicated keys on some keyboards.
- stormbrew 12y ago
  I've spent plenty of time on keyboards without them (largely macs) and I still hate it. My old Toshiba laptop (z830 -- a 14" laptop, no less) just has them in a straight line along the right edge of the keyboard and that works just fine and doesn't require me to use two hands to do something that should be one finger. Again, it's not like there's some lack of space on this and other 15" laptops. "It's not that hard to..." arguments are basically admitting defeat before the debate begins. I could probably get used to a 5 key chording keyboard if I tried, but I don't think it would enrich my life.
  - tpeaton 12y ago
    And I don't care for the independent keys on the top row. It's a stretch with how often I use them. My argument isn't "It's not that hard to...", it's "I prefer this." Different (key)strokes.
    - stormbrew 12y ago
      Not along the top row. As a column down the side. http://blog.laptopmag.com/wpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Toshiba-Portege-Z835_keyboard.jpg http://blog.laptopmag.com/wpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/... As for "different (key)strokes", I wouldn't have an issue if the choice to have these as independent keys were still around, but right now if you want that you have very limited choice. Hence my distaste for the trend.
jeromenerf 12y ago
Bizarre, I actually like the apple or hhk Fn-arrows way.
shpx 12y ago
because you can just press space/shift+space.
- freehunter 12y ago
  Pressing space in a text editor tends to add a space. Pressing pgdn doesn't.
  - vq 12y ago
    C-v and M-v in Emacs and friends and CTRL+b and CTRL+d in vi and clones. EDIT: and if you were fine with reaching for PgDn then SHIFT+up, SHIFT+down in vim is probably a viable option as well.
    - stormbrew 12y ago
      Great. Now not only do I have to use two keys in everything to do it, it's a different pair of keys in everything! Man, what I've been missing all these years having separate keys for this. (Yes, I know fn+arrow does them the same in more or less everything as well)
guelo 12y ago
Because they're copying Apple's keyboard.
aeflash 12y ago
They are super-imposed over the arrow keys. Fn+Up = PgUp, Fn+Left = End, etc... I have the previous year's model and it did take some getting used to.

Why in god's name does a laptop that large not have independent home/end/pgup/pgdn keys. This trend drives me nuts.

dima55 12y ago

Or a second windows key. Or separate mouse buttons. Sigh

slantyyz 12y ago
>> Or separate mouse buttons. I find that part to be the most annoying part of touch pads on non-Mac laptops these days. I get that Apple has the reputation for having the best pads (which makes them an ideal source for copying ideas), but I've always hated the clicking mechanism on my Macbook Pro, especially when it came to right clicks. My Lenovo Y50 at least doesn't require a second finger to right click, but I would rather have had two discrete, tactile buttons for the pad.
- stilldavid 12y ago
  > ... especially when it came to right clicks Just curious, do you have secondary click set to click with two fingers, or to click in bottom right corner?
  - slantyyz 12y ago
    I'm admittedly clumsy and imprecise with touch pads, so neither option works well for me. On my Mac, I had it set to the default, which was two fingers. On my Lenovo, it's set to click in the bottom right half. I keep missing (because I don't look down) and click the bottom left half by mistake.
jgrowl 12y ago
Why do people use a second windows button? I've never understood how it is useful.
- slantyyz 12y ago
  >> Why do people use a second windows button? It's useful to people who prefer to (or are conditioned to) hit it with their right hand.
- organsnyder 12y ago
  I like to remap those keys to AltGr and/or compose. Makes it much easier to type accents, proper punctuation…
- qzcx 12y ago
  On my mac, I use the right command key to one hand commands which require it and something on the right right keyboard. Very useful

mod 12y ago

That removes me from the market. I use those keys incessantly, browsing the web and coding both. I bought a very large Asus gaming laptop primarily for this reason, and I'm very fond of the placement, as well (above the numpad, can be easily found without looking). Other things that are important to me is a gap to be able to feel F5 without looking, and same for the arrow keys. So many keyboards put the arrow keys--which require a hand movement--inline with other keys without making them distinct. At the very least put a nub on the up key or something.

smellf 12y ago
> That removes me from the market. Same. And what kind of developer edition laptop doesn't have a full keyboard, i.e. a numpad? It drives me nuts.
- jethro_tell 12y ago
  The kind where they want the keyboard to be centered on the machine. I hate number pads on laptops because then the keyboard is off center. I can't really think of anything that would actually make it a feature worth the shift. Different strokes, I guess.
- illicium 12y ago
  One that is not 13". This is meant to be a compact machine, not a desktop replacement.
- rifung 12y ago
  What do you use the numpad for when developing? Just curious because I actually prefer keyboards that don't have it to save desk space

jgrowl 12y ago

I never use those keys personally. I guess because I use vi bindings wherever possible.

tpeaton 12y ago

I have an older xps 13, which has the same keyboard layout as the m3800. I actually really like stacking page up/down, home, and end on the arrow keys. I use keyboard shortcuts as much as possible and can hit these very quickly. The function key right next to the left control key in conjunction with these works very well for me. It took a few days to get used to, but I love it now. Certainly much better than some of the other more funky positioning of dedicated keys on some keyboards.

stormbrew 12y ago
I've spent plenty of time on keyboards without them (largely macs) and I still hate it. My old Toshiba laptop (z830 -- a 14" laptop, no less) just has them in a straight line along the right edge of the keyboard and that works just fine and doesn't require me to use two hands to do something that should be one finger. Again, it's not like there's some lack of space on this and other 15" laptops. "It's not that hard to..." arguments are basically admitting defeat before the debate begins. I could probably get used to a 5 key chording keyboard if I tried, but I don't think it would enrich my life.
- tpeaton 12y ago
  And I don't care for the independent keys on the top row. It's a stretch with how often I use them. My argument isn't "It's not that hard to...", it's "I prefer this." Different (key)strokes.
  - stormbrew 12y ago
    Not along the top row. As a column down the side. http://blog.laptopmag.com/wpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Toshiba-Portege-Z835_keyboard.jpg http://blog.laptopmag.com/wpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/... As for "different (key)strokes", I wouldn't have an issue if the choice to have these as independent keys were still around, but right now if you want that you have very limited choice. Hence my distaste for the trend.

jeromenerf 12y ago

Bizarre, I actually like the apple or hhk Fn-arrows way.

shpx 12y ago

because you can just press space/shift+space.

freehunter 12y ago
Pressing space in a text editor tends to add a space. Pressing pgdn doesn't.
- vq 12y ago
  C-v and M-v in Emacs and friends and CTRL+b and CTRL+d in vi and clones. EDIT: and if you were fine with reaching for PgDn then SHIFT+up, SHIFT+down in vim is probably a viable option as well.
  - stormbrew 12y ago
    Great. Now not only do I have to use two keys in everything to do it, it's a different pair of keys in everything! Man, what I've been missing all these years having separate keys for this. (Yes, I know fn+arrow does them the same in more or less everything as well)

guelo 12y ago

Because they're copying Apple's keyboard.

aeflash 12y ago

They are super-imposed over the arrow keys. Fn+Up = PgUp, Fn+Left = End, etc... I have the previous year's model and it did take some getting used to.