4 ms·

DMAE. Not a drug, an over-the-counter "food supplement." I was introduced to it by a programmer in Florida. Apparently it increases oxygen availability in the

DMAE. Not a drug, an over-the-counter "food supplement." I was introduced to it by a programmer in Florida. Apparently it increases oxygen availability in the brain. What I found was that it was pretty much a 30 minute cure for programmer's burn out, like a cup of coffee that actually worked by making you clearer and fresher, rather than just more restless and agitated. I wouldn't refer to it as performance enhancing, only performance restoring. Worth reading up on. I don't remember there being any contraindications, but YMMV.

amichail 19y ago
What's the scientific evidence for its effectiveness? In your case, it could simply be the placebo effect.
- skmurphy 19y ago
  It's mixed. It naturally occurs in your body in minute amounts. It was prescribed under the brand names Deaner, Deanol, Lucidryl among others. This is a literature review http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21390 http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e049880... A second set of citations (some overlap with first) http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/nov2004_aas_01.htm http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/nov2004_aas_01.htm
- downer 19y ago
  GIYF. "Dimethylaminoethanol is related to choline and is a biochemical precursor to the neurotransmitter acetylcholine" (ACh). "In the central nervous system, ACh has a variety of effects as a neuromodulator, e.g. for plasticity and excitability. Other effects are arousal and reward." Do you remember Andro (androstenedione, used to be available in stores, used by Mark McGwire)? It's a testosterone precursor. Your liver converts it to testosterone (and also some amount converts to estrogens). So a neurotransmitter precursor would seem to be a bit like steroids for the brain. Not sure how external supplementation affects endogenous neurotransmitter production, but with hormone precursors the biofeedback loop tells your endocrine system to stop its own production. E.g. if you take testosterone, your body shuts down its own production (when your testosterone level hits a certain point, your body thinks "oh, that's enough for now" and hits the off-switch on your testicles. This turns off ALL their functions, so it's actually also a form of birth control. And since they aren't doing anything, they atrophy). Fun note: Your body tries to keep your testosterone:estrogen ratio at about 50:1 (for young men). So if you take androgenic steroids, your body increases its own estrogen production. Once you hit a certain absolute amount of estrogen, you're growing breast tissue. Then you are a man. With titties. (Bodybuilders combat this by using certain steroids that don't aromatize into estrogen as much, and also using anti-estrogens that either bind to the aromatase enzyme to stop conversion into estrogen, or bind to the actual estrogen receptor sites like Clomid. One interesting effect of Clomid -- that makes it attractive to male porn stars -- is it causes big pop shots.)
  - skmurphy 19y ago
    Starting with "Do you remember Andro" we seemed to have switched topics. Your brain produces acetylcholinterase which scavenges excess acetylcholine. Arricept, Huperzine, and other chemicals inhibit acetylcholinesterase formation (and therefore increase acetylcholine levels). If your brain acetylcholine levels are low then certain substances may help in the formation of additional acetylcholine (e.g in addition to DMAE there are other compounds like choline, CDP choline, Alpha GPC, and PPC). If your equilibrating mechanisms are working then small amounts of precursors shouldn't cause a derangement. Athletes taking steroids are attempting to overload the equilibrating mechanisms to build muscle. Choline precursors don't seem to have these same "down-regulation" harmful side effects when taken in moderation to bring brain acetylcholine levels back into "normal range." I am not advocating steroids or supplement use, but it seems to me that they have two different usage patterns: steroid use involves intentionally boosting levels outside of the normal range for "performance enhancing" results, where the DMAE use described by Hexayurt was in response to "programmer burnout" which likely involved depleted acetylcholine levels in the brain and was in his own words "performance restoring." In terms of the hacker news angle, I would think all things in moderation in the context of development plans that rely on efforts that are sustainable over a long period of time. A references on choline for memory formation improvement: http://sciencenewsmagazine.org/articles/20031122/food.asp http://sciencenewsmagazine.org/articles/20031122/food.asp
    - downer 19y ago
      I don't know what effect neurotransmitter precursors have on endogenous production, which is why that information would be useful so we can better judge their safety. The steroid example was to point out that there could be substantial repercussions from taking a substance which you produce naturally. You don't even have to take excessive doses -- take in only as much as you would normally make and your body's production may drop to zero, since it's now being completely replaced. Steroids must be cycled down gradually, because going off cold turkey just leaves you with a crashed endocrine system. If neurotransmitter replacement works similarly, one can imagine a few problems that might crop up with a crashed brain. > Choline precursors don't seem to have these same "down-regulation" harmful side effects when taken in moderation to bring brain acetylcholine levels back into "normal range." "Don't seem"? Human studies needed. Maybe these already exist -- that would be handy. I'm not familiar with neurotransmitter supplementation. Taking something because you have a deficit is indeed different from trying to massively exceed your nominal levels. In the context of performance-enhancing mental drugs, exceeding your typical levels is of course the point of the exercise. > "programmer burnout" which likely involved depleted acetylcholine levels in the brain Possibly, but that assumption seems like it could be quite a leap. Kind of like saying coffee works because of depleted caffeine levels in the brain. In fact, we have no data on what caused his particular case of "burnout". We can well imagine that an adrenaline shot, cocaine, ephedrine, and many other drugs could well "restore performance", but that doesn't indicate there was a deficit of those particular substances. Provigil and Ritalin may also help but that doesn't mean there was a deficit of those, either. An ACh deficit is only one of a bazillion possible reasons for "burnout".

amichail 19y ago

What's the scientific evidence for its effectiveness? In your case, it could simply be the placebo effect.

skmurphy 19y ago
It's mixed. It naturally occurs in your body in minute amounts. It was prescribed under the brand names Deaner, Deanol, Lucidryl among others. This is a literature review http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21390 http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e049880... A second set of citations (some overlap with first) http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/nov2004_aas_01.htm http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/nov2004_aas_01.htm
downer 19y ago
GIYF. "Dimethylaminoethanol is related to choline and is a biochemical precursor to the neurotransmitter acetylcholine" (ACh). "In the central nervous system, ACh has a variety of effects as a neuromodulator, e.g. for plasticity and excitability. Other effects are arousal and reward." Do you remember Andro (androstenedione, used to be available in stores, used by Mark McGwire)? It's a testosterone precursor. Your liver converts it to testosterone (and also some amount converts to estrogens). So a neurotransmitter precursor would seem to be a bit like steroids for the brain. Not sure how external supplementation affects endogenous neurotransmitter production, but with hormone precursors the biofeedback loop tells your endocrine system to stop its own production. E.g. if you take testosterone, your body shuts down its own production (when your testosterone level hits a certain point, your body thinks "oh, that's enough for now" and hits the off-switch on your testicles. This turns off ALL their functions, so it's actually also a form of birth control. And since they aren't doing anything, they atrophy). Fun note: Your body tries to keep your testosterone:estrogen ratio at about 50:1 (for young men). So if you take androgenic steroids, your body increases its own estrogen production. Once you hit a certain absolute amount of estrogen, you're growing breast tissue. Then you are a man. With titties. (Bodybuilders combat this by using certain steroids that don't aromatize into estrogen as much, and also using anti-estrogens that either bind to the aromatase enzyme to stop conversion into estrogen, or bind to the actual estrogen receptor sites like Clomid. One interesting effect of Clomid -- that makes it attractive to male porn stars -- is it causes big pop shots.)
- skmurphy 19y ago
  Starting with "Do you remember Andro" we seemed to have switched topics. Your brain produces acetylcholinterase which scavenges excess acetylcholine. Arricept, Huperzine, and other chemicals inhibit acetylcholinesterase formation (and therefore increase acetylcholine levels). If your brain acetylcholine levels are low then certain substances may help in the formation of additional acetylcholine (e.g in addition to DMAE there are other compounds like choline, CDP choline, Alpha GPC, and PPC). If your equilibrating mechanisms are working then small amounts of precursors shouldn't cause a derangement. Athletes taking steroids are attempting to overload the equilibrating mechanisms to build muscle. Choline precursors don't seem to have these same "down-regulation" harmful side effects when taken in moderation to bring brain acetylcholine levels back into "normal range." I am not advocating steroids or supplement use, but it seems to me that they have two different usage patterns: steroid use involves intentionally boosting levels outside of the normal range for "performance enhancing" results, where the DMAE use described by Hexayurt was in response to "programmer burnout" which likely involved depleted acetylcholine levels in the brain and was in his own words "performance restoring." In terms of the hacker news angle, I would think all things in moderation in the context of development plans that rely on efforts that are sustainable over a long period of time. A references on choline for memory formation improvement: http://sciencenewsmagazine.org/articles/20031122/food.asp http://sciencenewsmagazine.org/articles/20031122/food.asp
  - downer 19y ago
    I don't know what effect neurotransmitter precursors have on endogenous production, which is why that information would be useful so we can better judge their safety. The steroid example was to point out that there could be substantial repercussions from taking a substance which you produce naturally. You don't even have to take excessive doses -- take in only as much as you would normally make and your body's production may drop to zero, since it's now being completely replaced. Steroids must be cycled down gradually, because going off cold turkey just leaves you with a crashed endocrine system. If neurotransmitter replacement works similarly, one can imagine a few problems that might crop up with a crashed brain. > Choline precursors don't seem to have these same "down-regulation" harmful side effects when taken in moderation to bring brain acetylcholine levels back into "normal range." "Don't seem"? Human studies needed. Maybe these already exist -- that would be handy. I'm not familiar with neurotransmitter supplementation. Taking something because you have a deficit is indeed different from trying to massively exceed your nominal levels. In the context of performance-enhancing mental drugs, exceeding your typical levels is of course the point of the exercise. > "programmer burnout" which likely involved depleted acetylcholine levels in the brain Possibly, but that assumption seems like it could be quite a leap. Kind of like saying coffee works because of depleted caffeine levels in the brain. In fact, we have no data on what caused his particular case of "burnout". We can well imagine that an adrenaline shot, cocaine, ephedrine, and many other drugs could well "restore performance", but that doesn't indicate there was a deficit of those particular substances. Provigil and Ritalin may also help but that doesn't mean there was a deficit of those, either. An ACh deficit is only one of a bazillion possible reasons for "burnout".