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You must be joking about Dutch being difficult to master. Dutch grammar is in every aspect simpler than German. The orthography is a bit awkward though. Also,

by xiaq 12y ago

You must be joking about Dutch being difficult to master. Dutch grammar is in every aspect simpler than German. The orthography is a bit awkward though. Also, it is weird that Tannenbaum makes a difference between masculine and feminine at all, since in standard Netherlandic Dutch they have since long ago merged into the common gender ("de" word). I guess he just got that knowledge from some old grammar book...

danieldk 12y ago
Also, it is weird that Tannenbaum makes a difference between masculine and feminine at all, since in standard Netherlandic Dutch they have since long ago merged into the common gender ("de" word). Yes, but it is still relevant for pronouns: Dit is een ezel, [hij/zij/het] staat in de wei. Whether most speakers actually know the correct gender and thus pronoun is another question ;).
- gpvos 12y ago
  Actually, in modern Dutch the actual sex of the animal determines the gender to use, not the grammatical gender. If unknown, use the male form. (This may be different in Flanders.) The difference between "het" and "de" is actually also eroding at the moment.
  - danieldk 12y ago
    Actually, in modern Dutch the actual sex of the animal determines the gender to use, not the grammatical gender. If unknown, use the male form. (This may be different in Flanders.) ...if you know the sex of the animal. Also see here (the 'Toelichting'): http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/1631/zijn_haar_de_muis_heeft_staart_bezeerd/ http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/1631/zijn_haar_de_mu... Of course, these annoyances only exist because the distinction is going away, but hasn't gone completely.
- xiaq 12y ago
  Yes, the masculine/feminine distinction is not completely lost (yet) in modern Dutch. But > Whether most speakers actually know the correct gender and thus pronoun is another question ;). There is no "correct" grammar from a descriptive point of view. When most people don't distinguish masculine nouns from feminine ones any more, linguists tend to say "the m/f distinction is disappearing" instead of "there is a m/f distinction but most people don't know the correct gender".
micheljansen 12y ago
I didn't say it's difficult to master (I can't know, I grew up speaking it natively), but it certainly has that reputation. Looking at it as objectively as I can, it does not look any more complex or inconsistent than English, but obviously it's much easier to get exposure to that language through movies, music and the Internet than it is to Dutch.

by xiaq 12y ago

danieldk 12y ago

Also, it is weird that Tannenbaum makes a difference between masculine and feminine at all, since in standard Netherlandic Dutch they have since long ago merged into the common gender ("de" word). Yes, but it is still relevant for pronouns: Dit is een ezel, [hij/zij/het] staat in de wei. Whether most speakers actually know the correct gender and thus pronoun is another question ;).

gpvos 12y ago
Actually, in modern Dutch the actual sex of the animal determines the gender to use, not the grammatical gender. If unknown, use the male form. (This may be different in Flanders.) The difference between "het" and "de" is actually also eroding at the moment.
- danieldk 12y ago
  Actually, in modern Dutch the actual sex of the animal determines the gender to use, not the grammatical gender. If unknown, use the male form. (This may be different in Flanders.) ...if you know the sex of the animal. Also see here (the 'Toelichting'): http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/1631/zijn_haar_de_muis_heeft_staart_bezeerd/ http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/1631/zijn_haar_de_mu... Of course, these annoyances only exist because the distinction is going away, but hasn't gone completely.
xiaq 12y ago
Yes, the masculine/feminine distinction is not completely lost (yet) in modern Dutch. But > Whether most speakers actually know the correct gender and thus pronoun is another question ;). There is no "correct" grammar from a descriptive point of view. When most people don't distinguish masculine nouns from feminine ones any more, linguists tend to say "the m/f distinction is disappearing" instead of "there is a m/f distinction but most people don't know the correct gender".

micheljansen 12y ago

I didn't say it's difficult to master (I can't know, I grew up speaking it natively), but it certainly has that reputation. Looking at it as objectively as I can, it does not look any more complex or inconsistent than English, but obviously it's much easier to get exposure to that language through movies, music and the Internet than it is to Dutch.